国外网友关于“史上最久文明”的讨论(龙腾翻译合作贴)

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原帖地址
http://archive.worldhistoria.com/what-is-the-longest-living-civilization_topic13853_page1.html的翻译
龙腾翻译合作贴,非常感谢各位翻译的幸苦工作
目前只有第六页没人翻译了
帖子很长,非常长,但是在每页开始前都有标注“第XXX页正文”,就能用ctrl+F查找第几页,这样更方便
更新目录
第一页作者:熊孩子(已翻)
第二页作者:山间小客(已翻)
第三页作者:中华人民共和国(已翻)
第四页作者:trytrytry(已翻)
第五页作者:Jonathan(已翻)
第六页作者:未知
第七页作者:duke99(已翻,排版中)
第八页作者:熊孩子(已翻)
第九页作者:katherine(已翻)
以下开始正文



第一页正文如下:熊孩子翻译

My Indian friend say there was Indian state since 5000 years ago!
My Chinese friend say China has the world longest continuous history because they still write the same characters and practice many ancient traditions that their ancestors did in 4000 years ago.
My Iranian friend say they had the 1st great empire and was the oldest.
My Greek friend say they had longest history since they still speak and write Greek
....................and many people of different ethnicities claim their culture is greatest living fossil.
Everyone has bias toward their own heritage so it is better to have a poll or serious academic discussion on this issue.
CIA world fact book and many other international organization states China as the world longest living civilization.........but my Indian friend said China was conqueried by Mongols, Turks (???), and Mancurians. And even Mongolians today didnt belive they are part of Chinese history. But, again, if the Macedonians were considered as part of Greek history (Macedonians were considered by ancient Greeks as semi-barbarians), I guess Mongols could be interpreted as "Sinicized" tribe of China.

印度朋友说早在5000年前就有了印度国
亚虎国际娱乐朋友说亚虎国际娱乐是世界上历史最悠久的,因为他们仍在沿用4000年前的文字和传统
希腊朋友说他们的历史最长久,因为他们仍然在用希腊语。
还有许多不同种族的人声称,他们的文化是最大的活化石
每个人都会偏爱自己的文化,所以在这一问题上有必要来一次民调或者学术讨论。
CIA的世界史事和其他的国际都组织都将亚虎国际娱乐看做最长久的文明,但我的印度朋友说亚虎国际娱乐曾经被蒙古人、土耳其人和满洲人占领过。甚至今天的蒙古人从来不认为他们是亚虎国际娱乐历史的一部分。但是,如果马其顿人被认为是希腊历史的一部分(古希腊人人为马其顿人是半开化的野蛮人)同样蒙古人可以称之为被汉化的部落。

Cywr:
I've heard some Jews claim its Judism.
And on it goes.
Everyone wants their's to be the longest living, continiously existing, oldest, whatever, and they all have a carefully designed set of rules to swing it their way. Very predictable and lame.
Civilisation is essentialy a pattern of settlment, i can't think of many that have remianed totaly andf completly unchanged over the millennia. In fact, i can't think of any, peroid.

每个人都希望他们的历史是最长久的,持续不断的和最古老的,无论如何,而且都会仔细设计一套有利于自己(理论)的规则。这套规则可以预期是站不住脚的。
文明实质上是一种当地居民的生活模式,他们当中许多至今还能保留而且千年不变这是不可想象的。事实上,任何历史时期都不一样。

Ginnis:
The Inuits! From the day they passed the Bering strait (some thousand years ago), untill now little have changed in their way of life.

纽因特人就是(这样的的)!自从他们通过白令海峡之后(几千年前),直到今天他们的生活方式依然没有多大变化。

Cywr:
If your going to play it that way, they i'd nominate the San of South Africa. Archeological records point to a fairly consistant existance going back 20,000+ years. But even there, we see a few changes as they adopt new technology and techniques.
Of course, they were semi-nomadic. No civis, no civilisation. Don't you just love the Roman world view?

你要这样说,我倒是推荐南非的San族。公认的考古学记录能追溯到20000年以上。但即使是今天,当他们使用新工艺和新技术后,我们看到他们的改变依然微乎其微。
当然,他们还是半游牧(民族),没有公民,也没有文化。难道你只会用罗马人的观点看世界?(类似天朝上国论——译者注)

Ginnis:
Australian Aborigines are far older, they formed hunting societies 40000-50000 years ago in Australia.
And yes, I love the Roman world view.

澳大利亚的土著更久呢,40000-50000年前他们就在澳大利亚形成了游牧社群。
是啊,我就喜欢天朝上国论。

Cywr:
Thats when they are supposed to have arrived there,, but they are not a consistant civilisation in the simplified sense, their lifestyles varied considerable depending on where in Oz they lived (climate and enviroment), not to mention changes, otherwise, yes, they are pretty damn old too, but African hunting societies are older still.
The question is, do we go with the Romano-Urban centric notion of Civilisation and exclude them, or do we try to take a more ethnicity/lifestyle group approach, in which case the Greek/Chinese/etc. come accross as relative babies compared to the likes of the San, and other African and Australian groups.
Generaly speaking, people put the Civis in Civilisation and exclude nomadic hunter types as 'tribal', and thus their often greater and easily traced continuity is ignored.

当他们到达那里之后,但在某种意义上说他们并不是一个连续的文明,他们的生活方式很大程度上取决于他们生活在什么地方(气候和环境的因素),更不用提有没有变化了,否则,是的,他们的历史当然长了,但是非洲的狩猎社会不是更长么。
问题是,我们是否采用罗马的城市中心的概念这一唯一的文明标准,或者我们尝试采取一个多种族/生活方式的方法,比较希腊/亚虎国际娱乐等等采用哪种方式。一般来说,人们将城市生活视作文明,游牧狩猎类型则看做“部落”,这样更能最大范围且更容易追溯历史的连贯性。

Master_Blaster:
Indian culture, and Hinduism are thousands of years old (Hinduism is the oldest religion in the world and its beginnings are unknown) however, there has never been one long-standing continuous Indian nation.
Indian and Chinese civilizations are two of the oldest in the world, and both have rich histories, but I recall learning in grammar school that the Egyptian civilization was the first great civilization on earth.
Also, bear in mind that "civilization" is described as beginning with the written word and that would make the Middle East - and specifically the Mesopotamia area or modern day Iraq - as the oldest civilization on earth.

印度文化和印度教有千年的历史(印度教是世界宗教史上最古老同时也是未知起源的),但是,那儿从来就没有长期持续的国度。
印度和亚虎国际娱乐是世界上最古老的2大文明,都拥有悠久的历史,但是我回忆起我初中的所学,诶及文明是世界上的最早的伟大文明。
记住文明开始的标志起始于书写,这使得中东地区,特别是两河流域,也就是现在的伊拉克是最古老的文明。

Cywr:
I doubt that Hinduism is the oldest religion in the world, i'd reckon there are animist religions in Africa that are older.

我对印度教是世界上最古老的教派保持怀疑,我认为在非洲的泛灵论更加古老(类似亚虎国际娱乐的万物皆由灵——译者注)。

Giannis:
I agree, but you can describe hinduism as the oldest organised religion.

我同意,但你可以把印度教形容为最古老的宗教组织。

vulkan02:
Every religion has some type of organisation. What you mean by organised?

每一个宗教都一定的组织形式,你指的组织是什么?

Giannis:
A caste of priests, significance of temples, prays, sacred artifacts and books and so on. In a few words a specific way of worshiping a deity

教众的等级制,寺庙的特征,祈祷,教义的物品和书籍等等。简单的说就是向神祈祷的特别方式。

vulkan02:
Temples, case of priests(shamans), prays and artifacts i think are part of all religions from animism to christianity. If you talking books probably the oldest then would be Zoroastrianism which was founded around 1200BC based on revealed scripture.

我认为庙宇,祭司(巫师),祷告和器物都是所有宗教信仰的一部分,不论是原始的万物有灵的宗教还是基督教,如果你要说古老的书籍那么根据解密的经文可能是公元前1200年建立的琐罗亚斯德教。

Master_Blaster:
Originally posted by Cywr
I doubt that Hinduism is the oldest religion in the world, i'd reckon there are animist religions in Africa that are older.
Ask any religious studies or philosophy professor and they will tell you that Hinduism is the oldest religion in the world. In fact, it is so old that a date or founder cannot even be attributed to it.
It is the sister religion of Zoroastrianism, and the concept of the Holy Trinity in Christianity actually originated with Hinduism:
Christianity: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost
Hinduism: The Creator (Brahma) , the Perserver (Vishnu) , the Destroyer (Shiva).

随便问些宗教学者或者是哲学教授,他们都会告诉你印度教是史上最古老的教派。老的什么时间和谁创立的都不知道。
他是琐罗亚斯德教的姊妹教,基督教忠三位一体神的概念事实上源自印度教。
基督教:父神,圣子和圣灵。
印度教:创造之神(梵天),保护之神(毗湿奴),生殖与毁灭之神(湿婆)

Ponce de Leon:
I personally believe that the longest living civilization is yet to be percieved. My bets go on to the USA as being the longest living civilization....EVER!

我个人觉的最长的文明还没有被发现。我打赌美国肯定是最长的文明~~~~史上最久!

malizai_:
The concept of a unitary god has been prent amongst the aboriginals for thousand of years as well.
Equally there is said to be more civility in the Indus civilization with a society base on equality than some others.(Although IVC is work in progress i admit.

造物主概念早就在土著中流传了几年前了
同样有说法声称比起别的文明,印度文明更文明。(虽然我承认正在浏览IVC文件~~意思在百度——译者注)

Odin:
It depends on what what concept of civilization you are using. For example, one can conider China as one continuous cvilization but can also think of China as 3 successive civilizations (Arnold Toynbee divides up Chinese history into the Hsia-Shang, Classical Sinic, and Buddho-Sinic civilizations). I happen to follow Toynbee's conception of a civilization, and So I consider the longest-lasting civilization ever to be Ancient Egypt (Around 3,500BC to around 500AD).
The oldest living civilization is Buddho-Sinic (originated around 300AD after the fall of the Han Dynasty) followed by Western and Orthodox Christendom (both originated around 600AD). The youngest civilization is Islamic, which started when the Abbasid Caliphate (which was the universal state of the preceding Syriac civilization) collapsed.

这取决于你对文明的定义。例如,可以认为亚虎国际娱乐是一个连续的文明同样也可以认为亚虎国际娱乐是3段接替的文明(阿诺德·汤因比将亚虎国际娱乐历史划分为夏商,古亚虎国际娱乐和佛家亚虎国际娱乐文明),我倾向于汤因比的文明概念,所以我认为最长的文明是古埃及文明(大概公元前3500年至公元500年)。
现存最久的文明是佛家亚虎国际娱乐文明(认为是公元300年汉朝灭亡之后),接下来是西方文明和正统基督(都起源于公元600年),最年轻的文明是伊斯兰文明,它起源于阿拔斯王朝的哈里发倒台之后(这是叙利亚文明的前身)。
*译注:阿诺德.约瑟夫.汤因比 Amold J.Toynbee (1889——1975)当代影响最大的英国史学家之一
虽然有网友提出这里的第三个文明可能是儒家文明,但根绝忠实原文的原则,仍然改回佛教亚虎国际娱乐文明,老外他就是这么分的~~

Master_Blaster:
Hinduism is the oldest RELIGION!!! How many times must I emphasize this? Shamanism and animism are NOT religions, rather, they are beliefs which vary from culture to culture.
The oldest civilization has to be the Middle East - primarily Mesopatamia (modern day Iraq) because "civilization" is measured by the FIRST WRITTEN WORD and the first traceable written records are attributed to the Middle East.
Sure, there may have been some peoples who developed agricultural societies, but there were no records written during that time!

印度教是最早的宗教!要我重申多少次!萨满教和泛灵论不是宗教,确切的说,他们在不同的文化中信仰是不同的。
最古老的文明应该是中东——前两河流域(今伊拉克)文明,因为“文明”的标志是最早的文字的书写和最早的可追溯的书写记录,这都表明中东才是最古老的文明
当然,也有可能有一些人发展出了农业社会,但他们在这段时间没有记录留下来。

gcle2003:
Originally posted by Ponce de Leon
I personally believe that the longest living civilization is yet to be percieved. My bets go on to the USA as being the longest living civilization....EVER!
When 's it going to begin?
For another view:
"America is the first country to have gone from barbarism to decadence without the usual intervening period of civilization" - Oscar Wilde.

它什么时候开始的呢?
另一种观点认为:
“美国是第一个从野蛮走向衰落而没有一般文明中断时期的国家”——奥斯卡王尔德 。

Kids:
"Hinduism is the oldest RELIGION!!!"
How about the proto-Indo-European religions? the Native People's religion? Japanese Shinto?
Come on, Hinduism isnt the oldest, but ONE of oldest.....

“印度教是最古老的宗教!!!”
那么原始的印欧宗教又如何呢?地方性宗教呢?日本的神道教呢?
行了吧,印度教不是最古老的,但它最古老的宗教之一……

Kids:
"The oldest civilization has to be the Middle East"
I agree. But, it isnt the LONGEST LIVING civilization; it certainly had the oldest civilizations but they were conquered and abosorbed by later empires and nomadic invaders, such as Arabs.

我同意。但它不是最长的延续至今的文明;它肯定是最古老的文明,但他们被后来的帝国和游牧入侵者征服并且丢弃,比如阿拉伯人。
 

第二页正文如下:山间小客翻译

Master_Blaster:
Originally posted by Kids
"Hinduism is the oldest RELIGION!!!"
How about the proto-Indo-European religions? the Native People's religion? Japanese Shinto?
Come on, Hinduism isnt the oldest, but ONE of oldest.....
Why don't you ask a religion studies, history, or philosophy professor BEFORE you post such nonsense?
HINDUISM, JAINISM, AND BUDDHISM are three of the oldest religions in the world (with Hinduism being the oldest) and all three originated in India! I think your disbelief that India contributed so much to human civilization, i.e. the numeral system, the number zero, etc., stems from the fact that you suffer from an inferiority complex.
I took a religion studies course and trust me - my Jewish professor stated in full confidence that Hinduism was the oldest religion in the world, as did every textbook on religion we went over.

亚虎国际你在胡说八道之前不去请教下宗教学者,历史教授或者哲学教授?
印度教,耆那教和佛教统称为世界三大古老宗教(其中印度教历史最长),这3家都是在印度创立!我想你肯定怀疑印度对世界文明的贡献如此之多,可计数系统,数字0的使用都是源自印度,事实会让你尝尝自卑是什么滋味。
我曾经学习过宗教课程,相信我,在我们查过宗教方面的所有课本后,我的犹太教授信心十足的肯定印度教是世界上最古老的宗教

Kids:
"philosophy professor BEFORE you post such nonsense"
"I think your disbelief that India contributed so much to human civilization, i.e. the numeral system, the number zero, etc., stems from the fact that you suffer from an inferiority complex"
Watch your language! I got honor degree in Political Science from Univesity of Toronto, and philosophy and I dont need someone to criticize my intelligence.
Inferiority complex? When did I say Indians are inferior? Did you even read my first post? I mentioned that my INDIAN FRIEND told me that India has longest history. If I racist or Orientlaist, why would I have make friend from India origin?
You can provide evidences but offensive language or personal attack is unacceptable!
Beside, the post isnt about who has oldest religion, it is about the longest living civilization on earth. If you are so passion about Hinduism, go create another post.

注意你的言辞!我拥有多伦多大学的政治学和哲学荣誉学位,同样我也不需要别人来质疑我的理解力。
自卑感?我什么时候说印度人低人一等了。你有看过我的第一条回复么?我说过我的印度同学告诉我印度拥有悠久的历史,如果我是一个种族主义者我怎么能交到来自印度的朋友?
你可以阐述论据,但不接受使用侮辱性语言或者人身攻击。
再说,帖子讨论的不是谁拥有最古老的宗教,而是地球上仍然延续的最长文明,如果你对印度教这么感兴趣,那就另开一贴。

Master_Blaster:
I'm not passionate about Hinduism, I just merely stated historical facts. And as such, I have already stated that the Mesopatamian civilization is the oldest continuous civilization in the world.

我对印度教没什么兴趣,我只是在阐述一个历史事实,同时,我也早就说过两河流域文明是世界上现存的最古老文明。

gcle2003:
Originally posted by Master_Blaster
It is the sister religion of Zoroastrianism...
What connection do you think Hinduism has with Zoroastrianism?
Hinduism conflates two traditions - the polytheism typical of all the original Indo-European peoples with the doctrine of Karma and reincarnation (which I've always felt the incoming Indo-Europeans probably picked up from the indigenous Indian cultures). Zoroastrianism doesn't have much to do with either and represents as much of a new start as Middle Eastern monotheism, even from the point of view of those who date it to the late 2nd millenium BCE, rather than the 6th century BCE.
On the other hand I think I would agree that Hinduism probably is the oldest still widely followed religion: I would take animism to be the name of a class of religions (like monotheism, polytheism, and so on) rather than a specific religion. Of the animist religions Shinto is the most widely spread (I would have thought), and it just may be older than Hinduism, but we don't really know. The origins of both are obscured.
(PS Oldest civilisation isnt the same thing as oldest religion.)

你认为印度教和拜火教有什么联系?
印度教融合自2个教派——无神教与典型的信奉因果报应和轮回转世的印欧语系人们有关(我一直认为后来的印欧人继承了印第安土著文化)。拜火教和这其中的任何一个都没什么联系,更多代表的是中东一神教新的开端。有些人就从一观点上更多的将拜火教看做始于公元前2000年末期,而不是什么公元前6世纪。
另一方面我也认同印度教可能是目前仍被信奉的最古老宗教,我倾向于将泛灵论统称为一类宗教(像一神论,多神论等等)而不是一种独立的宗教。泛灵论中的神道教传播非常广泛(我认为的),它可能比印度教还要古老但我们却不知道。他们的起源都模糊不明。

Mixcoatl:
It is impossible to define civilization, and it is even more impossible to draw a line inbetween different civilizations, both in time and in space. Hence it is impossible to name the longest living civilization.

根本就没法给文明一个准确的定义,甚至连在时空上给不同文明间划上一条分界线都做不到。更何说去命名哪一个是现有的最长文明。

Master_Blaster:
Originally posted by gcle2003
What connection do you think Hinduism has with Zoroastrianism?
Hinduism conflates two traditions - the polytheism typical of all the original Indo-European peoples with the doctrine of Karma and reincarnation ……
1. Hinduism is not a polytheistic religion. It is both a polytheistic and monotheistic faith.
2. Research Zoroastrianism and Hinduism and you will notice that both religions incorporate the histories of Indo-Iranian peoples.
3. I already stated multiple times that HINDUISM is the oldest religion and that the Mesopatamian civilization is the oldest continous civilization.

1、印度教不是一神论宗教,同时包括一神论和多神论信仰。
2、研究过拜火教和印度教的话你就会注意到这2个宗教都吸收了印度伊朗语系人的历史
3、我已经多次阐述过印度教是最古老的宗教而两河文明是现存最长的文明。

gcle2003:
Originally posted by Master_Blaster
1. Hinduism is not a polytheistic religion. It is both a polytheistic and monotheistic faith.
Then it's polytheist, isn't it? Or are you saying it is not a religion but a faith, in which case I don't understand the distinction you are drawing?

那不就多神论?你刚说那不是一种宗教而是信仰,不明白你指的有什么区别?

2. Research Zoroastrianism and Hinduism and you will notice that both religions incorporate the histories of Indo-Iranian peoples.
Well, yes, since they're both Indo-European in origin (Hinduism in part). But by my question I meant what connections do they have religiously - i.e. in doctrine, beliefs, rituals....

对啊,因为他们都源自印欧人(印度教部分是),但我的问题是他们之间的宗教性有什么联系,例如教旨上,信仰上,仪式上的……

3. I already stated multiple times that HINDUISM is the oldest religion and that the Mesopatamian civilization is the oldest continous civilization.
I said I agreed with you about Hinduism being the oldest extant, widely followed religion, except possibly for Shinto, about which I don't think we know enough to argue.
But your stating something doesn't make it true, no matter how often you state it. You need some argument to support the statement.
I'll give you one: Hinduism results from the merger of the beliefs of the incoming Indo-European migrants and those of the indigenous peoples. No other extant, widely followed religion can date its origin back further than that.
As for civilisations, the Mesopotamian ones died out an awful long time ago. They certainly had a long run, but I'd have thought the ancient Egyptian civilisation has any of the Mesopotamian ones beat.

我已经说过我同意你关于印度教是尚存的、信徒广泛的宗教,但是可能要排除神道教,因为我认为我们并没有掌握足够的信息去讨论他是不是早于印度教。
但是你的论据并不是很充分,无论你重申了多少次,你必须有论据支持你的观点。
我说一条:印度教起源自后来的印欧人移民和土著人们的信仰。没有第二个尚存并广泛传播的宗教能追溯至那么久。
然后对文明而言,两河文明早已经在很久以前就很遗憾的消失了。他们确实有一段很长的历史,但我认为古埃及文明各个方面都完胜两河文明。

Master_Blaster:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/9410/hindu1.html
http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20011106.html
http://www.agnosticwitch.catcara.com/nonscript-version/oldest-religion.htm
Hinduism is widely regarded by historians as being the oldest religion in the world. It cannot be credited to a single founder or even a date to its' beginnings.

史学家们都普遍认可印度教是世界最古老的宗教。都无法找出其创立者甚至是创立的时间。

Shinto-ism is certainly not the world's oldest religion, in fact, from what I know, both Jainism and Buddhism (these two religions were also founded in India and derived from Hinduism) are many centuries older than Shinto-ism.

神道教绝对不是世界最古老的宗教,事实上以我了解的耆那教和佛教(这两大教派都演变自印度教切在印度创立)比起神道教要早很多世纪。
http://www.archaeologynews.org/link.asp?ID=20318

Here is an excerpt from this link:

摘录至上面网址

"Hinduism has the oldest recorded roots in Dravidianism. Dravidianism was estimated to have been practised around 6000 to 3000BCE and as such predates Sumerian, Egyptian and Babylonian cultures."

印度教有记录的源头见于原始宗教.人们推测原始宗成熟于公元前6000年至公元前3000年,照这样算要先于苏美尔文明,埃及文明和巴比伦文明。

I am not a Hindu and as such, I have no personal interest in propogating anything that would place Hinduism in a positive light. I am merely restating those facts which are widely accepted by the world's archeological community.

我本身不是印度教徒,也没那兴趣为了夸大印度教而宣传什么。我纯粹的只是想重申那些被考古学界广泛接受的事实。

And as I have also stated in this section many times over, Mesopotamia is the world's oldest civilization.

同样我已经在这篇贴文中说过很多次,两河流域文明是世界上最古老的文明
http://www.classbrain.com/artaskcb/publish/article_119.shtml

The most common definition of civilization is “an advanced state of development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of writing, and complex political and social institutions.”

关于文明最普世的定义“一种高度发展的人类社会形态,以科学艺术,广泛的书写和复杂的政治经济体系为标志”

Now, if you scroll up, you will notice that I stated much the same thing in my previous posts when I defined "civilization" as having begun with the "written word".

如果你看翻上去看回帖,你就会发现这和我之前以文字书写作为文明的开端所表达的意思基本相同。

Essentially, Mesopotamia is the most decided upon answer to your question, based on archeological evidence and the above definition.

实际上,根据考古证据和上面的定义,最符合你问题的答案就是两河流域文明。

This is an excerpt from the same above link.

这是同一个网址的摘录。
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia

"Mesopotamia was one of the first, if not the first, place in the world where writing developed."

两河流域即使不是第一也是世界上最早发明书写的文明之一。
http://www.digonsite.com/drdig/neareast/28.html

"This depends so much on how we define a civilization! The first permanent farming settlements were established in the Middle East in approximately 8000 B.C. By 6000 to 5500 B.C., irrigation has developed and the roots of the Mesopotamian civilization were in place. By 3300 the city of Uruk had two great temples, and its priests and accountants had developed cuneiform writing. Other early farming communities are India (7000 B.C.) and China (6500 B.C.), both of which led eventually to civilizations. The Indus state emerged in 2700 B.C., while the Xia dynasty in China developed in 2100 B.C."

这很大程度上依据我们如何定义文明!第一个固定农耕定居点大约成立于公元前8000年的中东地区。公元前6000年至公元前5500年前,那里就有了发达的灌溉技术和两河文明雏形。公元前3300年,乌鲁克市就有了2大宏伟庙宇,神职人员和统计人员也使用成熟的楔形文字。其他早期的农耕社会分别是印度(公元前7000年)和亚虎国际娱乐(公元前6500年),都最终形成了各自文明。公元前2700年印度国成立,一段时间后的公元前2100年亚虎国际娱乐夏朝建立

I can find you other sources which state that India's civilization is much older than China's and some historians who claim that India's civilization is even older than that of Mesopotamia's - hence, making India's civilization the oldest in the world. However, since the earliest Indian civilizations (as well as Chinese civilizations) were farming communities, archeologists tend to regard Mesopotamian civilization as the oldest.

我能为你找到表明印度文明远比亚虎国际娱乐文明悠久的史料,以及一些历史学家主张印度文明更悠久于两河文明的资料——这样,印度文明就成了世界上最古老的文明。不管如何,正因为最早的印度文明(同亚虎国际娱乐文明)是农耕社会,考古学家们都倾向于将两河流域文明视为最悠久的。

Nestorian:
我本身不是印度个教徒,同时也没有那兴趣……

You are not a Hindu as such? Isn't a simple yes or no much easier? Plus, one does not need to be a Hindu to be a Indian nationalist. I've acquired a degree in political science and history and I'm familiar with Indian theories about civilisation "deriving from" India. About how the Indo-Europeans came from India and not the other way around. Are you one of those?

你本身不是印度教徒?简单的回答是或不是不是更简单?再说,一个印度种族主义者不一定非要是印度教徒。我拥有政治学和历史学的双重学位,也了解印度人关于人类文明发源于印度这样的理论。印欧人哪儿都不是就是来自印度如何?你印度论中的一个?

Plus, the Trinity has no roots in Hinduism. It is purely superficial and there is no semblance at all.

另外,三位一体不是源自印度教。这观点实在太过肤浅,他们之间也不存在相似的地方。

Consider this:

可以这样认为:

IN Christian Theology God is three persons, but each person is distinct and individual, but not separate. God does not manifest as three persons. But IS three persons. It is a self-sustaining relationship,

基督神学主神是三位神,每一个神都是个性鲜明的个体却又没分离。主神有三神的神格但是不以三神展现。这是一种相互独立的关系。(译者吐槽:意思是一体三魂~~老外表达这种意思真麻烦~~)

Krishna may manifest in many forms and that is different from the Trinitarian concept. Despite the fact that the "official" wording and description of the Trinitarian concept did happen till the around the time of the councils of Nicaea, it was merely a confirmation of existing beliefs, sort of like a final declaration or consolidation of what a large majority of the Church believed. No Hindu influence there though.

克利须那神可以以不同的形式表露显然不同于三神一体的理念。不管是官方的措词还是尼西亚会议期间关于三位一体神的描述。这基本上就是盖棺定论的观点,有一点像最终解释或者大多数教会的共识。没有受到印度的影响。

Krishna克利须那神
Unless of course, you also believe that Jesus went to India like some New Agers believe?
What would proving India as the oldest civilisation prove? That everything comes from India? Or just being proud of the fact?

当然除非你也同新时代宗教信仰者一样认为耶稣去过印度?
你怎么样证明印度是最古老的文明?什么都源自印度?这样的事实是不是很自豪?

gcle2003:
You write as if I disagreed with you.
However, where do you get the information from about the origins of Shintoism?
And you keep ignoring the fact that the question refers to 'living' civilisations. The Mesopotamian civilisations, not matter how long ago they started, have been dead for a long time. They aren't 'living' civilisations. Much the same applies to the early Indian civilisations like that of Mohenjo Daru.

好像我不认同你说的。
不管如何,你是从哪知道神道教起源资料的?
你又才一次忽略事实那就是我们讨论的是现存文明的问题。不管两河文明起源于多久,很久就已经消亡了。那就不再是现存文明。就像摩亨佐-达罗的消亡一样适用于早期的印度文明。

The other point at issue is the confusion between the Hindu religion and the original religions of the country, before the Indo-European migration, about which we know very little if anything. Vedic Hinduism, which seems to result from the merger of Indo-European beliefs with local ones, dates back probably no more than 1500 BCE, though it probably had been developing for some while before that.

另一个焦点是这个国家在印度人的宗教和本土原始宗教上的不确定,我们对印欧人移民之前的事没多少了解。
貌似由印欧人和当地人信仰结合演化而成的吠陀印度教派,追溯其时间可能不早于公元前1500年,也可能在那之间早就发展过一段时间了。

Which would make it not so old as the ancient Egyptian religion, but of course it has lasted a lot longer. (Though it has changed considerably in recent historical times, especially with the feedback from Buddhism and Jainism. The monotheistic element is much stronger now that originally, probably due to the influence of the middle eastern religions.)

即使不能使它和古埃及宗教一样古老,但是至少存在了很长一段时间。(虽然后期受到耆那教和佛教的影响改变了很多。但一神论要素仍比原始宗教浓厚,可能是因为受到了中东地区宗教的影响)
引用Master_Blaster的链接
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/9410/hindu1.html

Inter alia it says "In Sanskrit, the original language of India, 'Sanatana' means Everlasting and 'Dharma', by a crude translation, means Religion."
Sanskrit is not the original language of India. Why trust anything else the site says?

链接特别提到“在印度古老语言梵文中,‘Santana’表示永恒和法则,粗略的翻译就是宗教”
梵文不是印度的原始语言,怎么只要网站写都相信?
http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20011106.html

This one confirms what I wrote.

上面这个佐证了我的观点。
http://www.agnosticwitch.catcara.com/nonscript-version/oldest-religion.htm

This one says "This is probably because Hinduism has the oldest recorded roots, which lie in Dravidianism. Dravidianism is estimated to have been practiced around 6,000 to 3,000 BCE and as such predates the Sumerian, Egyptian, and Babylonian cultures."
有人说“这可能是因为印度教的源头最早记录于原始宗教,推测原始宗教成熟于公元前6000年至公元前3000年,这样的话就先于苏美尔文明,埃及文明和巴比伦文明。”

It makes exactly the mistake I described of confusing the indigenous religion, which he calls 'Dravidianism'. Dravidian is the term for the 'original' inhabitants, and i don't think we know anything about their religion. That Hinduism has 'roots' in the indigenous religion is a point I made: however it also has roots in the early Indo-European religions.

这完全就是错的,我已经说了关于印度本地宗教的疑惑,也就是他所说的原始宗教(Draviianism)。原始宗教是相对于原始人类的用语,我认为我们一点也不了解他们的宗教,我说过印度教的根源可追溯至原始的土生宗教,但同样也可以在早期印欧人的宗教中发现。

If you use its 'roots' as a criterion, then you have to admit Christianity has roots in Judaism and Judaism has roots in the tribal religions of the near east, and, in general, all religions have roots that go back into prehistory.On that basis they are all as old as one another.

如果你用根源当做标准,那么你就必须承认基督教的根源是犹太教,犹太教的根源则追溯至靠近东方的部落宗教,然后从广义上说所有的宗教都能在史前文明中找到根源。依据这个的话他们彼此都同样古老。

Hinduism is widely regarded by historians as being the oldest religion in the world. It cannot be credited to a single founder or even a date to its' beginnings.

史学家们都普遍认可印度教是世界最古老的宗教。都不能找出其创立者甚至是创立的时间。

Shinto-ism is certainly not the world's oldest religion, in fact, from what I know, both Jainism and Buddhism (these two religions were also founded in India and derived from Hinduism) are many centuries older than Shinto-ism.

神道教绝对不是世界最古老的宗教,事实上以我的了解耆那教和佛教(这两大教派都演变自印度教切在印度创立)比起神道教要早很多世纪。
http://www.archaeologynews.org/link.asp?ID=20318

This one only addresses the question of which is the oldest of Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Hinduism. It doesn't even mention Shinto.

这是回答犹太教,基督教,伊斯兰教和印度哪一个是最古老的宗教的唯一网址

Again, as far as I'm aware, we have no evidence relating to when Shinto originated (and little regarding when and where the Japanese people came from). Extremists will claim that it dates back to the Jomon period (perhaps as early as 10,000 BCE) which would make it earlier than anything else.

再说一次,以我目前的了解,我们没有证据推断神道教是何时创立的(和日本人何时出现,从哪来没什么关系),极端者声称能追溯至神道时代(可能早至公元前10000年)那么将比任何一个宗教都要久远。

Kids:
引用之前的话
我知道你怀疑印度对人类的文明贡献如此之多……
我对印度不狂热,我只是在陈述历史事实。

You sounds arrogant and rude

你看起来真傲慢无礼。

Master_Blaster:
引用之前Nestorian的留言
我本身不是个印度教徒……

引用Nestorian
你本身不是印度教徒?简单的回答是或不是不更简单?……

Well, I am neither a Hindu nor an Indian nationalist. I do not believe everything originated in India, and I certainly do not refute the Aryan Invasion Theory. The Hindu nationalists who propagate such nonsense as India being the root of all great contributions to human civilization are absurd and irrational and I would never waste my time debating with such people regardless of their national origin.

好吧,我既不是个印度教徒也不是个印度种族主义者。我不相信万物起源于印度,当然我也反驳不了雅利安人入侵理论。印度种族主义推崇的所有伟大的人类文明的根源都源自印度,这样的观点荒谬可笑,不管他是哪一国的我都不会浪费时间跟这样的人争论。

引用Nestorian的话
再说,三位一体理论的根源不在印度教……

You simply making a claim such as the "Trinity has no roots in Hinduism" does not make it true unless you can support such a claim with fact.

这里你很草率的就断言“三位一体神论的根源不是出自印度教”,除非你能以事实做依据要不然你就不要这么断言。

引用Nestorian
基督神学主神是三位神,每一个神都是个性鲜明的……
克利须那神可以以不同的形式表露显然不同于三神一体的理念……

I am not Hindu so I am certainly not going to bother arguing Hindu theology with you. I only offered up the notion that Hinduism may have influenced the concept of the Christian Trinity. Perhaps I could have worded it less ambiguously by stating that the Aryan concepts, which were later, adopted into Hinduism are the same basis for the idea of the Christian Trinity. I certainly do not have any doubts that the Aryan peoples' beliefs influenced Judaism which in turn influenced Christianity.

我不是印度教徒所以我自然不会跟你争论印度神学。我唯一能献上的看法是基督教的三位一体神论受到了印度教的影响。我可能在之前论述印欧人概念时稍微模糊的提过,之后被印度教吸收的印欧理念同样是基督教三位一体的根据。

引用Nestorian:
当然除非你也如那些新世纪运动的信仰者一样认为耶稣去过印度。

No, I do certainly do not believe that. It is absurd for anyone to believe such a thing and I myself would think anyone who placed any emphasis on such a theory was lacking all rational.

不,我肯定不这样认为。任何人相信这事都太荒唐了,我个人认为强调这理论的人都太缺乏理性。

引用Nestorian
什么能印度是最古老的文明?万物源自印度?……

I never stated that India was the oldest civilization in the world. I stated many times that the oldest civilization in the world, as accepted by the archaeologist community is that of Mesopotamia, if you want to argue that India is the oldest continuous civilization in the world, then all you need to do is scroll up to the links I provided which state that the earliest communities in India originated in 7,000 BC – a full 500 years before the Chinese civilization.

我从来没说过印度是世界上最古老的文明。我说过很多次,被考古学界认可的最古老文明是两河流域文明。如果你想争论印度是不是世上延续最久的文明。那你需要做的就是去看看我提供的链接,那上面有说印度最早的社会出现于公元前7000年——比亚虎国际娱乐文明早整整500年。

Also, I never stated that everything comes from India, but I did lend credence where it is due in that the modern numeral system we utilize today, and other concepts did in fact originate in ancient India.

我也从来没说过什么都出自印度,但我确实说过我们现代使用的数学系统出自那,一些概念实际上也在印度提出的。

Something to be proud of? I suppose if I were East Indian, then I would be proud of it, but as such, I only pointed it out as a known fact. I am getting the impression from you that you feel Indian civilization is inferior to your own and others which you have high regard for – is this a valid assumption?

值得骄傲的事?如果我要是东印度人,那么我确实会骄傲,但我只是将那些当做众人皆知的事实说了出来。我感觉的到,你认为印度文明比不上你自己的和你所尊敬的文明——是不是一个非常正确的设想?

Kids:
"我既不是印度教徒也不是印度种族主义者……"

I doubt that
我怀疑真实性
“我认为你怀疑印度对人类文明的贡献如此之多,例如……”

Arrogant and rude
傲慢无礼
"你需要做的就是去看看我提供的链接…… "

First of all, being oldest doesnt mean most "advanced":
China was the master of technology in ancient time and only Roman empire was perhaps equal to its golory (read the National Geography's A Chinese Empire that rival Rome).

首先,最古老的不代表是最先进的。
古代亚虎国际娱乐是科技的领导者,可能也只有罗马帝国能与之相比。(读读国家地理的匹敌罗马帝国的中华帝国)

In fact, there has been numerous books that compared the Classical Age of China and Greece since China's experience was most comparable to Greece

事实上,因为亚虎国际娱乐经历是最能和希腊相比的,很多的书籍都会将古亚虎国际娱乐和希腊做比较。

The Cambridge University published the renowed scholar of Hellenic studies, Dr. G. E. R. Lioyd "The Ambitions of Curiosity: Understanding the World in Ancient Greece and China" in year 2002

剑桥大学2002年出版了著名希腊史学者G.E.R.劳埃德的《猎奇雄心:读懂希腊和亚虎国际娱乐的古代世界》”

(译注:G.E.R.劳埃德曾写过《古代世界的现代思考:透视希腊亚虎国际娱乐的科学与文化》,但是看英文名和这里举例的不同,所以我就自己翻译了,欢迎提供更好的名字)

Yale University also published "The Way and the World: Science and Medicien in Early China and Greece" by another renowned Classic scholars Geoggrey Lloyd and Nathan Sivin in year 2002

耶鲁大学也同样在2002年出版了另一位著名古典家Geogrey Lioyd和Nathan Sivin的《世界作风:古代亚虎国际娱乐和希腊的科学和医学》

The above books can be found in most of major libraries of North American university (UBC, Univeristy of Torono, University of Alberta, Yale, Harvard, Oxford, MIT....). There are actually more academic books from Oxford in comparsion of Chinese science and Greek approach to the natural world, but the list is too long.

所提到的书籍都能在大多数北美高校的图书馆中找到(英属哥伦比亚大学,多伦多大学,阿尔伯达大学,耶鲁,哈佛,牛津,麻省理工等等),事实上还有很多更学术的著作比较亚虎国际娱乐和希腊科学接近物质世界的程度,但是列出来太长了。

If you ever took comparable history, scholars has been compared the achievements in science and technology between ancient Greece and China for two decades now.

如果曾经对比过历史,学者们关于古希腊和古亚虎国际娱乐在科学技术上成就的比较已经持续了2个多世纪

I havnt heard any prominet Western scholars compared India and Greece or India and China in terms of technological and scientific achievements.

我从来没听说过哪个著名西方学者在科学技术成就方面比较过印度和希腊或者印度和亚虎国际娱乐。

Master_Blaster:
引用gcle2003
我好像不能认同你的观点。

I understand your position in that there are multiple possibilities but until there is a consolidated effort amongst the archeologists, historians, and theologians to change the school curriculum, then I will continue to believe what we are taught in school.

我理解你说的很多可能性,但是除非以后考古学家、历史学家以及神学家能联合将这些写入课程,那么我才会继续相信学校里教的。

For example, as Nestorian stated, there are consolidated efforts on the part of Hindu nationalists, and scholars of Indian thought, to debunk the Aryan Immigration Theory. I will admit that some of their reasoning does make one entertain their ideas but again, unless the Aryan Immigration Theory is completely rejected by the world community, I will still continue to believe it to be true. Similarly, Shinto-ism may or may not be older than Hinduism, but until the world community accepts this, I will continue to believe that the latter and not the former is the oldest religion in the world.

就如Nestorian说的,大都认为部分的印度种族主义者和印度理论学者是想推翻雅利安人入侵理论。我承认他们中的部分解释能支撑他们的观点,除非世界学术界普遍否定雅利安入侵理论,否则我仍然认为它是正确的。

引用gcle2003
那你又是从哪了解神道教的?

As far as I am aware, scholars accept that Hinduism originated around 1500 BC with the Aryan invasion of India, and Shinto-ism originated in 300 BC in Japan.

就目前我知道的,学者们认同印度教与公元前1500年起源于雅利安人入侵下的印度,神道教起源于公元前300年的日本。

引用gcle2003
你又一次无视我们讨论的是……

I offered a retort to this query in my response to Nestorian, and you can derive what my response would have been by the link I provided to you earlier in which it stated that Mesopotamia was the oldest civilization and that Indian civilization originated circa 7000 BC and Chinese civilization originated circa 6500 BC. That would make the Indian civilization the oldest continuous civilization in the world, and Chinese civilization, the second oldest.

我在回复Nestorian的时候有提到这个询问,你可以在我早先提供给你的网址得到我的回复,网址中提到两河文明是最古老的文明,印度文明大约开始于公元前7000年,亚虎国际娱乐文明大约是公元前6500年。那么印度文明就是世界上现存最古老的文明而亚虎国际娱乐文明排第二。

引用gcle2003
另一个焦点是这个国家在印度人的宗教和本土原始宗教上的不确定,我们对印欧人移民之前的事没多少了解。
貌似由印欧人和当地人信仰结合演化而成的吠陀印度教派,追溯其时间可能不早于公元前1500年,也可能在那之间早就发展过一段时间了。

You are correct, Vedic Hinduism does indeed have its origins in or around 1500 BC but this refers only to the Aryan concepts that were coupled with the beliefs of the conquered Dravidians. The history of the origins of Hinduism actually lies with the Dravidian peoples and this may actually be a lot further back than 1500 BC.

你说的对,吠陀印度教确实起源或大约起源于公元前1500年,但是只是参照雅利安概念而言,那时候已经结合了德拉维人的信仰。事实上印度教起源的历史能跟德拉维人联系上,这样可能就远远不止公元前1500年。

引用gcle2003
即使不能使它和古埃及宗教一样古老,但是至少存在了很长一段时间。(虽然后期受到耆那教和佛教的影响改变了很多。但一神论要素仍比原始宗教浓厚,可能是因为受到了中东地区宗教的影响)

I agree with you here completely. Although a Hindu will be reluctant to admit it if you asked him, I too feel that it was with the introduction of Islam to India that great emphasis was placed on the monotheistic element in Hinduism.

我完全赞同你的观点。尽管你问一个印度人时他承认的有点勉强。我觉得在伊斯兰教传播至印度时强调的重点变成了印度教的多神论。

引用gcle2003
链接特别提到“在印度古老语言梵文中,‘Santana’表示永恒和法则,粗略的翻译就是宗教”

Dharma does not mean religion, it is translated as DUTY, it may imply religion but I am not sure of this.

Dhama(梵语法则)意思不是宗教,应该是责任,可能带点宗教的意思但我不太确定。

引用gcle2003
梵文不是印度的原始语言,怎么只要网站写的都相信?

Sanskrit is the original language of India as accepted by the majority of scholars. Sanskrit is credited as being the mother language of all Indic languages. No doubt that Dravidian languages which were free of Indo-European terminology may have been the very first words spoken in the land now known as India, but by in large, Sanskrit is widely regarded and accepted as the original formulated language of India – just as Avestan is the original language of the Iranian peoples and the sister language of Sanskrit.

大部分学者都认同梵语是印度的最初语言。梵语被认为是所有印度语系的母语。毫无疑问没有印欧语言名词的德拉维语可能是后世印度大地上说的第一种真正的语言。但广义上大都认为梵语是印度最初的系统语言——就像Avesan(与古波斯语非常接近的一种语言)一样被认为是伊朗人的原始语言,同时也是梵语的姊妹语种。

引用gcle2003
有人说“这可能是因为印度教的源头最早记录于原始宗教,推测原始宗教成熟于公元前6000年至公元前3000年,这样的话就先于苏美尔文明,埃及文明和巴比伦文明。”

There is evidence, which suggests that the Dravidian peoples migrated through the Middle East, settled in the Iranian Plateau, and then made their way to India.

有证据表明迁徙的德拉维人穿过中东,定居在伊朗高原,最后开始了向印度迁徙之路。

引用gcle2003
这完全就是错的,我已经说了关于印度本地宗教的疑惑,也就是他所说的德拉维教(Draviianism)。德拉维教宗教是相对于原始人类的用语,我认为我们一点也不了解他们的宗教,我说过印度教的根源可追溯至原始的土生宗教,但同样也可以在早期印欧人的宗教中发现。

You are correct, Dravidians are the original peoples of India and today, they are largely confined to the Deccan Plateau in the southern Indian states of Kerala, Tamil, etc., but bear in mind that it was with the influx of the Aryan into India around 1500 BC and the adoption of Dravidian religious beliefs with that of the Aryans, which produced Vedic Hinduism. And that is why Hinduism is credited as having begun circa 1500 BC although the actual origins of Hinduism are thousands of years prior to that.

不错,德拉维人就是现在的印度人祖先,他们活动范围大都在印度南部克拉拉、泰米尔那德等邦的德干高原,但是记住他们是公元前1500年和雅利安人一起涌入印度的,融合了德拉维人的宗教信仰产生了吠陀印度教。这就是亚虎国际大都认为印度教产生于公元前1500年左右,但事实上它的起始年代要早上好几千年。

PS: Aryans introduced Indo-European language terminology and religious concepts to the Dravidians upon conquering the Indus River basin.

PS:雅利安人向德拉维人引进了印欧词汇和宗教理念然后征服了印度河盆地。

引用gcle2003
如果你用根源当做标准,那么你就必须承认基督教的根源是犹太教,犹太教的根源则追溯至靠近东方的部落宗教,然后从广义上说所有的宗教都能在史前文明中找到根源。依据这个的话他们彼此都同样古老。

On that basis, then Hinduism would remain as the oldest religion in the world because it has its roots in pre-historical Dravidian beliefs. Look, you stated that Shinto-ism might be the oldest religion based on the concept of where its roots can be traced, right? In that case, I argued that Hinduism serves as the oldest. On the other hand, if you accept that Hinduism as we know it today originated in 1500 BC –then you must also accept that Shinto-ism is credited with having originated in 300 BC, a full 1200 years after Hinduism!

基于这种标准,印度教仍然是世界上最古老的宗教,因为它的根源在曾经的德拉维人信仰中。瞧,你也说了根据追寻根源的原则神道教可能是最古老的宗教,是不?照你说的,我认为印度教可以作为最古老的。再说,你如果承认我们今天说的印度教起源于公元前1500年,那你也必须同样承认神道教被认为起源于公元前300年,整整晚于印度教1200年。

引用gcle2003
这是唯一回答了犹太教,基督教,伊斯兰教和印度哪一个是最古老的宗教问题的网址

Shinto-ism was founded circa 300 BC.

神道教大于创立于公元前300年
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_world_religions

引用gcle2003
再说一次,以我目前的了解,我们没有证据推断神道教是何时创立的(和日本人何时出现,从哪来没什么关系),极端者声称能追溯至神道时代(可能早至公元前10000年)那么将比任何一个宗教都要久远。

Extremists in all societies are the root cause of nothing more than mistrust, animosity, hatred, and ethnocentrism. It is due to extremists that conflicts exist in Israel-Palestine, India-Pakistan, Ireland-England, etc. I do not put any credence into anything an extremist believes.

极端主义者往往就是怀疑,憎恨,种族优越的根源。以色列与巴勒斯坦、印度和巴基斯坦,伊朗和英国等等之间的冲突就是因为极端主义者而起的。我完全无视极端主义的观点

I enjoyed this debate very much, you are very knowledgeable.

非常乐见这样的讨论,你非常博学

引用Kids
"我既不是印度教徒也不是印度种族主义者……"
我怀疑真实性
“我认为你怀疑印度对人类文明的贡献如此之多,例如……”
傲慢无礼
"你需要做的就是去看看我提供的链接…… "
首先,最古老的不代表是最先进的。
古代亚虎国际娱乐是科技的领导者,可能也只有罗马帝国能与之相比。(读读国家地理的匹敌罗马帝国的中华帝国)
事实上,因为亚虎国际娱乐经历是最能和希腊相比的,很多的书籍都会将古亚虎国际娱乐和希腊做比较。
剑桥大学2002年出版了著名希腊史学者G.E.R.劳埃德的《猎奇雄心:读懂希腊和亚虎国际娱乐的古代世界》”
(译注:G.E.R.劳埃德曾写过《古代世界的现代思考:透视希腊亚虎国际娱乐的科学与文化》,但是看英文名和这里举例的不同,所以我就自己翻译了,欢迎提供更好的名字)
耶鲁大学也同样在2002年出版了另一位著名古典家Geogrey Lioyd和Nathan Sivin的《世界作风:古代亚虎国际娱乐和希腊的科学和医学》
所提到的书籍都能在大多数北美高校的图书馆中找到(英属哥伦比亚大学,多伦多大学,阿尔伯达大学,耶鲁,哈佛,牛津,麻省理工等等),事实上还有很多更学术的著作比较亚虎国际娱乐和希腊科学接近物质世界的程度,但是列出来太长了。
如果曾经对比过历史,学者们关于古希腊和古亚虎国际娱乐在科学技术上成就的比较已经持续了20多年
我从来没听说过哪个著名西方学者在科学技术成就方面比较过印度和希腊或者印度和亚虎国际娱乐。

Your posts reap of anti-Indianism. I have no doubt that you view Indians with a sense of inferiority. I am not here to defend Hinduism or Indians, I simply stated what is widely regarded as fact.

你的言论读起来就像个反印度主义者。我肯定你带有色眼镜看待印度人,我在这儿并不是捍卫印度教或是印度人,我只是在陈述一段皆知的历史
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=4567

Read India's contributions to human civilization - pay especially close attention to what Albert Einstein stated.

读下印度对人类文明的贡献,特别重点关注下爱因斯坦说的
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_mathematics
http://members.tripod.com/~INDIA_RESOURCE/mathematics.htm
http://www.ayurvedahc.com/articlelive/articles/41/1/-Saints--Science-Re-establishing-Indias-World-Contributions/Page1.html

You do realize that during the Mughal Empire's reign in India, the Mughal economy's annual revenues were 17 times more than what was in the English monarch's treasury, right? Are you familiar with this aspect of Indian history? When we in the West refer to billionnaires such as Donald Trump as "moguls" - it is directly derived from the Mughal emporers of India who were the richest rulers in the world during their day.

你应该意识到印度莫卧尔王朝时期,莫卧尔的经济税收是大英帝国国库的17倍之多,是不是?你对印度这方面了解么?当我们西方把唐纳德·特朗普这样的亿万富翁称作“权贵”(moguls权贵之意)时——他们事实上是从印度当时最富裕的统治者莫卧尔帝王那演变而来。

I suspected that you were a racist and now you have proven my point. Next time you do your taxes or any form of math - just remember that you are using the INDIAN NUMERAL SYSTEM!

我断定你就是一个种族主义,现在你的言论又肯定了我的推断。下次当你缴税或做其他的数学运算时,请记住你正在用的是印度数字系统。

India is one of the richest civilizations in the world, the only reason you compare Greece to anything is because you live in a Western society that was directly influenced by Greek democratic principles.

印度文明是世界上最富饶的文明之一,你将任何事情都和希腊对比的唯一解释是你一直受到希腊民主主义的影响。

It's obvious to me you're a racist and a bigot. Please do not ever bother responding to me with any of your hate-filled nonsense -which you are so good at spewing in your lousy English.

对我来说你明显就是个种族主义。拜托你也别用拿充满仇恨的废话来回复我了——你太会用污秽的英语喷人了。

Kids:
"It's obvious to me you're a racist and a bigot. Please do not ever bother responding to me with any of your hate-filled nonsense -which you are so good at spewing in your lousy English."

对我来说你明显就是个种族主义。拜托你也别用拿充满仇恨的废话来回复我了——你太会用污秽的英语喷人了。

What the hell is that? Its you who first attack me personally, and now you refers me as racist?

我勒个去见鬼了?是你先开始对我人身攻击的,现在反过来说我是种族主义。

Proof your points with academic resources not with some online stuffs; i dont do my research papers with online wikipedia

请用一些学术观点来证明你的论点不要禁弄些网上的。我又不是用维基百科完成我的论文的。

If i am racist, then please check my first post and prove my post is an orientalist view

如果我是一个种族主义者,那么请查阅下我第一条言论并且证明我的回复是彻底的东方主义观点。

If I am racist, what would I bother to say China was advanced civilization?

如果我是一个种族主义者,我干嘛不去说亚虎国际娱乐是最先进的文明。

Regarding of my Chinese technological superiority, I already list all the academic resources, not from some wikipedia stuffs. All my books are from prominent universities in North America.

关于我说的亚虎国际娱乐科学技术的优越性,我已经列举了所有的教科书了,不是来自维基百科之类的,我所有的书籍都来自北美的顶尖大学。

And if you think i am racist, tell the administrater to ban me from the forum, otherwise stop this nonsense.

如果你还认为我是一个种族主义者,那么就去跟管理举报封了我,要不然就别胡扯。

You obivous dont have respect for someone who raise questions about India even after I have said that my India friend claimed India is oldest.

你显然一点也不尊重提出的问题涉及到印度的人,即使我有说过我的印度朋友赞扬印度是最古老的文明。

Master_Blaster:
Are you of Chinese descent? Do you feel that Chinese are superior to Indians? I'm trying to understand why you have such a negative view of Indian history. I do not need to prove anything as I have already provided you with multiple links and sources whereas all you have done is make some ludicrous claims in very bad English. I've never heard of ancient Chinese civilization being compared to Greek civilization.

你有亚虎国际娱乐人血统?你是不是觉得亚虎国际娱乐人比印度人优越?我在试着弄懂你亚虎国际这么贬低印度的历史。我根本就不需要证明什么,因为我已经向你提供了很多的链接,你糟糕的英语列举的资料只能徒增笑料罢了。我从来没有听过有人对比过亚虎国际娱乐文明和希腊文明。

Mind you my non-English speaking friend, that contributions to human civilization have been made by many peoples and no one civilization or people is inferior or superior to another.

非英语的朋友请记住,很多民族都对人类历史有贡献。没有哪一个文明人种比其他的高级或者低级。

Kids:
"Mind you my non-English speaking friend"

非英语的朋友请记住

No, I am a French-German descendent from Alberta, and I got honor degree in political science and philosophy form UT. Did I ever claim that you are racist? or inferior english-speaker? All my claim are from academic books that I listed above, and I dont think my reouces are less trustful than your online sources.

不是,我是来自阿尔伯达的法德后裔,我有德州大学的政治,哲学荣誉学位。我有说过你是种族主义么?或者瞧不起说英语的?我所说的都来自上面例举的教科书,我并不认为比起你的网络资源来我的资料不可靠。

"I'm trying to understand why you have such a negative view of Indian history"

我在试着弄懂你亚虎国际这么消极看待印度的历史

First of all, I didnt say anything abour inferiority about Indians or reject the view that India was older than China. My Chinese friend often claim they have 5000 years old, but my history class indicated that Chinese history had merely 3000 years old written history.

首先,我从来没有贬低印度人或者否认印度比亚虎国际娱乐古老。我的亚虎国际娱乐朋友经常声称他们有着5000年的历史,但是我的历史课告诉我亚虎国际娱乐历史只有3000年的古记录历史。

Of course Inidians had enourmous contributions to Mathemaics, and did I reject tha claim?

当然印度人对数学有巨大的贡献,但是我有否认过么?

If Chinese didnt have such high technological development and philosophical discorse, why has many Classial scholars bother to compare it with Greece and Romans? and I already back up my claim with some academic books that you can check out.

如果亚虎国际娱乐没有这么发达的科技水平和哲学观点,亚虎国际古典学者不去对比希腊和罗马?再说我早就用教科书证明了我的观点,你可以自己去查。

I was angry because you attacked me personally without any evidences.

我之所以愤怒是因为你毫无根据的对我进行人身攻击

One last thing, if you think i am white racist, PLEASE TELL THE ADMINISTRATOR TO BAN ME FROM THIS FORUM!!!!!

最后,你如果你认为我是个白人种族主义者,请转告管理员然后封了我!!
 

以下为第三页内容,译者:中华人民共和国

Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 18:54
such anger! LOLOL
Kids - You're not doing anything except helping me add to my postcount. I'm tired of trying to read through your bad English and counter your narrow-minded views with rationalization. Please stop responding to my posts. I want to engage in constructive dialogue - not hatemongering.

别那么生气!笑。
Kids-你除了帮我增加留言数外,没其它什么了。我对阅读你的蹩脚的英语和反驳你的狭隘观点已经感到厌倦了。请不要回我的帖子。我想从事有建设性的对话-而不是煽动仇视。

Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 19:04
I think the oldest civilization is the one developed the toilet and flush, It saved us from looking for a bush everytime we need to relieve ourselves. Imagine the stench and hassle otherwise, + u would need about 5 million bushes in London alone. Not very civilized way to condcut one's affairs.

我认为最古老的文明是那个发明了厕所和冲洗的文明,它节省了我们每次需要释放的时候都要寻找小树丛的时间。想象没有它将会有多么恶臭和麻烦,仅在伦敦你就需要50万小树丛。而且这不是处理个人事务的文明方式。

Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 19:05
"Please stop responding to my posts. I want to engage in constructive dialogue - not hatemongering"
I guess that you are unable to counter my claim on Chinese science and technlogy and provide any books that discuss or comparison between India and Greece.
And I think the reason you called me racist because you were incapable of refuting my arguments. If I am really a Orientalist or racist, the administrator already kick me out.
Racist, bad-english, what else can you call me? Thats all you would refer anyone who raise questions about YOUR GREAT Indian civilization.

“请不要回我的帖子。我想从事有建设性的对话-而不是煽动仇视。”
我猜你不能用亚虎国际娱乐科技反驳我的任何观点,也无法提供讨论和比较印度和希腊文明的书籍。
我认为你把我称作种族主义者是因为你无法驳倒我的观点。如果我真的是一个东方学者或种族主义者,管理员早就把我封号了。
种族主义者,蹩脚英语,你还能叫我什么?你会对所有对你的伟大印度文明提出质疑的人扣上的帽子。

Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 19:17
I already countered your claims with valid sources, and yes, I do feel that Indian civilization was one of the greatest in the world - at the same level as many others, including China's. I also feel that European and Arab and Iranian civilizations were great - in fact I think they were superior to that of China's. Does that suffice? LOLOL
PS: AT LEAST LEARN TO USE THE QUOTE OPTION!

我已经通过广泛的来源反驳了你的主张,是的,我确实感到印度文明是世界上最伟大的文明之一--和其他的很多文明一样,包括亚虎国际娱乐。我也感到欧洲,阿拉伯和伊朗文明很伟大--事实上我想他们比亚虎国际娱乐文明优越。这样满足了吗?笑。
ps:至少学着使用引用选项!

Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 19:22
"in fact I think they were superior to that of China's"
You are contradicting yourself; you said I am racist, but I never say anything about China being superor to India. In fact, I agree India is way older than China.
But, now, you said Europeans and Iran are SUPERIOR to CHINA
Great, this proofs that you are an Orientalist and racist.
By the way, didnt you say you dont want to response to my posts? why continue to do so?

“事实上我想他们比亚虎国际娱乐文明优越。”
你自我矛盾;你说我是种族主义者,但是我没有说过任何关于亚虎国际娱乐比印度优越的话。事实上,我同意印度比亚虎国际娱乐古老得多。
但是,现在,你说欧洲和伊朗文明比亚虎国际娱乐文明优越。
真棒,这说明了你是一个东方学者和种族主义者。
顺便说一下,你不是说你不想回我的帖子吗?亚虎国际继续回?

Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 19:24
I said China was inferior - and if you had any grasp of the English language you'd have noticed the context in which I stated it! LOL
I keep responding to your posts b/c you're so damn entertaining!

我说过亚虎国际娱乐是劣等的--如果你对英文有一些理解你就会注意到我说这句话的上下文!笑。
我一直回你的贴是因为你是如此地令人愉快!

Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 23:18
"I also feel that European and Arab and Iranian civilizations were great - in fact I think they were superior to that of China's"
So, now you said China is inferior, and you reponse that it has to do with English context. Great, first, you accused me of being racist even I didnt say anything about Indian inferiority. Then, you called me bad English speaker after I provided all academic books, while you provided only wikipedia (even my little sister, who is 9 years old, have edited some articles on wikipedia. This is why most of universities ban the wikipedia for part of research papers).
If you think I am inferior in intelligence or mental capacity, isnt that also discrimination? Afterall, my Chinese and Indian friend in my physics class do not speark well in English, yet they got scholarships; do you also laugh at them because they speak "bad english"??
If I wrote bad English, this is because I dont write formally as I do in my school or work. Beside, this isnt english class. If I, a honor student in Political Scince, write bad english, I dont know how should I call you. Your accusation of my personal abilities is an attempt to remove my (as well as the members of this discussion) attention from the argument I made on the topic. By doing so, it enable you to shift the emphasis/core of the discussion to the unrelated topics that have nothing to do with India or China.
Since you think I am lower than you in terms of language capability, and you claim that its ridiculous to response to an ESL, why you still want to response? isnt that also make you as equally inferior?

“我也感到欧洲,阿拉伯和伊朗文明很伟大--事实上我想他们比亚虎国际娱乐文明优越。”
所以,现在你说中华文明是劣等的,你说要联系上下文看这句话。很好,首先,你指责我种族主义,而我甚至没有说印度文明是劣等的。然后,在我提供了所有学术资料后你说我英文差,而你只提供维基百科(甚至我的小妹妹,9岁,她也在维基百科上编辑一些文章。这就是大多数大学禁止使用维基百科作为研究论文的一部分)。
如果你认为我智力和精神有问题,这不也是一种歧视?最终,我的物理班里的亚虎国际娱乐和印度朋友说英语并不流利,他们仍然获得了奖学金;你仍然要因为他们说英语不好而嘲笑他们吗?
如果我写的英语不通顺,这是由于我不像我在学校或工作中那样写正式的英文。另外,这也不是英文课堂。如果我,一个政治科学的荣誉学生,写英语不通顺,我不知道怎样说你。你对我个人能力的指责是试图转移我(和其他参与讨论的人)对这个讨论主题的注意力。通过这样做,你成功把重点转移到了与亚虎国际娱乐和印度不相关的主题。
既然你认为我的语言能力比你低等,你主张回复一个英语非母语的人是荒谬的,亚虎国际你还回复?这不也同样是你劣等了吗?

Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 05:38
Originally posted by Master_Blaster
回复:"I enjoyed this debate very much, you are very knowledgeable."
Thanks, I did too.
I don't think we disagree much on facts so much as on interpretation. For instance I don't think you can look at Iraq and say this is still the 'Mesopotamian civilisation'. Ignoring that early Mesopotamia can be said to have more than one 'civilisation', all of them were pretty much supplanted by the Persian conquest, let alone the Arab one.
Similarly you can't look at Egypt now and say this represents the 'Egyptian civilisation' which lasted at the latest until the Arab conquest.
So I don't think you can say that Mesopotamian civilisation is the 'oldest living civilisation', though it is arguable it may have been the first to arise.
I only brought in Shinto because its origins are so obscure. 300 BCE seems to be OK for the beginning of the Yayoi period, and as the earliest known date for the existence of Shinto, but the question remains whether Shinto already existed in Japan previously as part of Jomon culture, or was brought in as part of the new immigration, or what.
There is certainly better evidence for Hinduism being the oldest extant religion than for any other.

谢谢,我也很享受这个讨论。
我不认为我们在事实和解释上有很大的不一致。举个例子我不认为你看着伊拉克然后说这仍然是“美索不达米亚文明”。早期美索不达米亚可以说拥有不止一种“文明”,他们所有都被波斯的征服所排挤,更别提阿拉伯了。
同样你不能看着现在的埃及然后说它是一直延续到被阿拉伯人征服的“埃及文明”。
所以我不认为你能够说美索不达米亚文明是“现存最古老的文明”,尽管有争论认为它有可能是最早诞生的文明。
我仅仅提到了神道教因为它的起源是模糊的。公元前300年看起来似乎是弥生时代的开始,这也是神道教存在的最早的记录日期,但是问题是是否在日本绳文时代就存在了,还是作为外来移民的一部分带来的。
当然印度教是相较于其他宗教现存的最古老的宗教是有更好的证据的。

Originally posted by gcle2003
回复“I don't think we disagree much on facts so much as on interpretation. For instance I don't think you can look at Iraq and say this is still the 'Mesopotamian civilisation'. Ignoring that early Mesopotamia can be said to have more than one 'civilisation', all of them were pretty much supplanted by the Persian conquest, let alone the Arab one. ”
You are right; I incorrectly stated that the Mesopotamian civilization is the oldest continuous civilization. I did not mean to state it as such; I simply meant to say that it was the oldest civilization. I agree in that since the various peoples which existed at that time have died our or become assimilated with conquering peoples, it cannot be considered the oldest continuous civilization.
And as I have already stated and provided a source indicating as such (again, I hate to keep beating the drums here), that the Indian civilization began circa 7000 BC and the Chinese civilization began circa 6500 BC. Are we to conclude from this that the Indian civilization is the oldest continuous civilization? The beginnings of this civilization has its roots with the Dravidian peoples who migrated to India after first settling in the Middle East and primarily establishing agricultural societies on the Iranian Plateau, would this then imply that the Iranian peoples (or Iranic peoples so as not to confuse the twofold definition of Iranian, i.e. a) a citizen of Iran vs b) of or pertaining to the Aryan inhabitants of the Iranian Plateau) is the oldest continuous civilization?
It appears to me that if we are to define the oldest continuous living civilization as the first peoples to make advances in certain fields and a people that continues to strive today – then we would need to concede that the Dravidian peoples are the oldest.

你是对的。我错误地陈述了美索不达米亚文明是最古老的仍然持续的文明。我的意思不是这样。我的意思仅仅是这是最古老的文明。我同意那时的人民都已经死了或被征服者同化,它不能被称作最古老的文明。
我已经表述和提供了一份指出(再一次,我不喜欢总是强调),印度文明在公元前7000年开始而中华文明大约起源于公元前6500年。我们可以从这得出印度文明是现存最古老的文明吗?这个文明的起源是首先在中东定居,首先在伊朗高原建立农业社会,然后迁居印度的德拉威人,这意味着伊朗是现存最古老的文明吗?
我认为如果我们把现存最古老的文明定义为第一个在某一领域取得进展的民族并且他们一直奋斗到了今天--那么我们必须承认德拉威人是最古老的。

Originally posted by gcle2003
回:“So I don't think you can say that Mesopotamian civilisation is the 'oldest living civilisation', though it is arguable it may have been the first to arise. ”
I agree completely, it was the first to arise and has since died out – and died out completely.

我完全同意,这是首先诞生的文明并且已经消失--完全消失。
Originally posted by gcle2003

回复“ I only brought in Shinto because its origins are so obscure. 300 BCE seems to be OK for the beginning of the Yayoi period, and as the earliest known date for the existence of Shinto, but the question remains whether Shinto already existed in Japan previously as part of Jomon culture, or was brought in as part of the new immigration, or what. ”
According to this argument, the beliefs, which were incorporated in Hinduism with the Aryan conquest of the Indus River basin, also have origins that date back many thousands of years before the accepted begin date given to Vedic Hinduism. If we apply your method of reasoning to determine that Shinto-ism is much older than the date ascribed to it (300 BC) – then we can also argue that Hinduism is much older than the date ascribed to it (1500 BC).

根据这个论证,信仰,包含雅利安人入侵印度和盆地后的印度教,在公认的吠陀印度教起始日期之前也拥有可以上溯好几千年的起源。如果我们使用你的推理方法确定神道教的起源比公元前300年更早--那么我们也能提出印度教起源于比公元前1500年更早。

Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 15:44
the oldest civilization is Greek. Almost the same language, same alphabet.
The origins comes up to 10000bc.
Not India is the old civilization that we have read and not china remindes something of the past.
regards

最古老的文明是希腊。几乎一样的语言,一样的字母表。
起源于公元前10000年。不是我们读到的印度是最古老的文明也不是亚虎国际娱乐给予我们远古的回忆。
致意。

Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 15:49
I have noticed that when you are reffering to old civilization and great ones you avoid mention the greek. According to what i have read (definetely ,ore than china india or so) i don't think that is there any comparison. I am willing to debate to anyone argues/
sorry for the offtopic
regards

我注意到当你们讨论古文明时总是避免谈到希腊。根据我读到的(肯定的,比亚虎国际娱乐印度古老)我不认为有任何可比性。我愿意和任何人辩论。

Posted: 24-Aug-2006 at 04:50
The question was about the oldest living civilisation. (It got distracted a bit to the oldest living religion, but it was always a question of living.)
Greek civilisation today is not the same as it was in the ancient world, let alone before it. And there were no Greeks as early as 10,000 BC let alone any Greek civilisation or alphabet. 1,000 BC would be closer.
There is only one living civilisation, it's global, and it's somewhere between 50 and 100 years old.
All the others are dead.

这个问题是关于最古老的现存文明(虽然讨论最古老的宗教有点跑题,但它依然是关于“现存”的问题)
希腊文明今天和古代并不一样,更别说之前。在公元前10000年没有任何的希腊人存在更别说希腊文明和字母表。公元前1000年更接近现实。
现在只有一个现存文明,那就是全球化,它大概有50到100年这么长。
所有其他的都死了。

Posted: 24-Aug-2006 at 11:25
Originally posted by gcle2003
“The question was about the oldest living civilisation. (It got distracted a bit to the oldest living religion, but it was always a question of living.)
Greek civilisation today is not the same as it was in the ancient world, let alone before it. And there were no Greeks as early as 10,000 BC let alone any Greek civilisation or alphabet. 1,000 BC would be closer.
There is only one living civilisation, it's global, and it's somewhere between 50 and 100 years old.
All the others are dead. ”
you must be joking.
at 1100 bc the Dorieis (Greek tribe like Minoas,Achaous,Iones) return from their colonization of nothern Balkans.
At 10000bc a huge phisical disaster destroy a large piece of the Greek Civilization. Was the disaster of Deukaliona.
The topic is not refer to the current civilization. Even if it was you must not consider civilization the way people dress or the food they ate etc. Civilization is the culture, art -music, and of course the history of each nation. Right now American way of life is almost the dominate way of living. If that you are meaning.
The modern Greeks are the evolution of ancient Greeks. The modern greek alphabet is at 90% the same with the ancient one. The ancient greek language is similar to modern. Can you read ancient greeks? can you read modern? I guess not. Then how casn you have opinion of that. Just searching google? Yes nice way.
regards

你一定在开玩笑。
公元前1100年多里斯人(像Minoas,Achaous,Iones一样的希腊部落)从对巴尔干北部的殖民中返回。公元前10000年一个巨大的物理灾难摧毁了一大片希腊文明。是Deukaliona之灾。
这个主题并不涉及当前的文明。即使是那么你也不能用人们怎么穿衣服和吃什么食物的角度来看待文明。文明是文化,艺术,音乐,当然还有各个国家的历史。现在美国的生活方式是最占优势的生活方式。如果那时你的意思的话。
现代希腊是古希腊的进化。现代希腊字母有90%和古代是一样的。古希腊语和现代的相似。你能阅读古希腊文吗?你能阅读现代希腊文?我猜不能。那么你如何产生那样的观点。通过google?是的是个好方法。

Posted: 25-Aug-2006 at 05:21
I said 'closer to' 1000 BC. I agree it was slightly before, but the Minoan civilisation, assuming you call it Greek, was a whole lot closer to 1000 than 10000 BC.

我说的是“接近于”公元前1000年。我同意它还要早一点,但是克利特文明,假设你把它叫做希腊,相对于公元前10000年更加接近于公元前1000年。

回:“At 10000bc a huge phisical disaster destroy a large piece of the Greek Civilization. Was the disaster of Deukaliona. ”
This is supposed to be a history forum, not a mythological one.

这应该是个历史论坛,不是神话论坛。

回“The topic is not refer to the current civilization. Even if it was you must not consider civilization the way people dress or the food they ate etc. Civilization is the culture, art -music, and of course the history of each nation. Right now American way of life is almost the dominate way of living. If that you are meaning. ”
The major determinant of a civilisation is scientific knowledge and technology, facilitated by ease of communication within it. Religion is sometimes a second factor, though a single civilisation may host different religious beliefs. Differences in art forms tend to have a technological base, in both the visual arts and music.
What I mean by our current civilisation is that, globally, we share the same scientific knowledge and technology. Our artistic output is much the same, with only minor local differences: where there are differences, as with world music, the tendency is for them to merge. Our educational institutions (apart from the religious ones) teach the same subjects in the same ways.
I don't see any of that as particularly American.

成为文明的主要的决定因素是科学知识和技术,由他们内部交流的扩大而促进。宗教有时是第二个因素,尽管一个单一的文明可能持有不同的宗教信仰。艺术形式的不同是由技术基础不同导致,不管是视觉艺术还是音乐。
我的现代文明的意思就是这个,全球化,我们享有同样的科学知识和技术。我们的艺术产出非常相似,仅有较小的局部的不同:只要是不同的地方,就像世界音乐,趋势是合并融合。我们的教育体系(且不说宗教)用同样的方式教授同样的课程。
这些东西不是只有在美国才能看见。

“The modern greek alphabet is at 90% the same with the ancient one. The ancient greek language is similar to modern. Can you read ancient greeks? can you read modern? ”
I can read the alphabet, but I don't speak more than a few words: I only worked in Greece a few weeks, though my children went to school there for a while, and they speak modern Greek. I'm helped with the alphabet by the fact I speak Russian.
But there were NO alphabets of any kind before 2000BC; the first apparently alphabetic inscriptions we have come from the Sinai a little later than that, with some indication that the Phoenician alphabet, the earliest we're really sure about, developed from that system. And the Greek developed from the Phoenician.
Are you claiming that modern Greek civilsation is related to that of semi-nomadic tribes in 17th Dynasty Sinai, just because the modern Greek alphabet can be traced back to theirs?
(I write that not knowing if there are any contenders in India or south-east Asia: China and Japan of course never did develop an alphabet.)

我能阅读希腊字母,但是我无法读出词汇:我只在希腊工作过几个星期,尽管我的孩子在那里上过一段学,他们说的是现代希腊语。我能阅读希腊字母是由于我说俄语。
但是公元前2000年确实没有任何形式的字母;最初的像字母的铭文出现在那之后不久的西奈半岛,有一些迹象表明腓尼基字母,我们确定的最早的,发展自那个系统。希腊字母源于腓尼基字母。
你主张现代希腊文明与那个半游牧的部落第17西奈王朝有关系,仅仅因为现代希腊字母可以追溯到他们那里?
(我写下这段话,但我不知道是否在印度和东南亚有竞争者:亚虎国际娱乐和日本显然从未发展出字母文字)。

“I guess not. Then how casn you have opinion of that. Just searching google? Yes nice way. ”
So the descent continues into sarcasm as a substitute for debate.
As a matter of fact I didn't google any of this. I didn't check back on any of this except the 2000BC date, which I confirmed in John Man's excellent book Alpha Beta. If you're looking for references to back up anything about Greek civilisation, then my basic reference book is the Oxford History of the Ancient World, which then itself gives plenty of other references,

所以这个帖子仍然逐渐变为讽刺取代了辩论。
事实上我并不google关于这个的任何东西。我不查阅任何东西除了公元前2000年这个日期,在John Man的好书Alpha Beta里我更加确信我的观点。如果你在寻找支持希腊文明的文献,我么我的基础参考书是牛津古代世界史,它也给出了足够了其他参考文献。

Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 22:24
Errr... we were going off topic, hinduism is a religion, not a longest living civlisation. some records prove it to be over 8000 yeas old, other religions like buddhism are only 600 over years old.

额。。。我们歪楼了,印度教是宗教而不是最长的现存文明。一些纪录证明它有8000年历史,其他宗教像佛教只有600年历史。

Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 04:49
"we were going off topic"
Master Blaster was clearly a racist, and he was banned from the forum. The topic was supposely about the longest LIVING civilization, and then he claimed that India as oldest living civilization while China had the shortest history of all.
Then, perikles now claimed that Greece IS the longest living civilization and criticized China as being inferior in terms of contributions to the world.
I have no idea why people have such negative view toward Chinese civilization.

“我们歪楼了”
Master Blaster无疑是个种族主义者,他被论坛禁止发言了。主题本应是关于最长的现存文明的,然后他主张印度是最古老的现存文明而亚虎国际娱乐历史最短。
然后,perikles现在主张希腊是最长历史的现存文明并批评亚虎国际娱乐在对世界做出的贡献方面是劣等的。
我不知道亚虎国际人们对中华文明持有如此负面的观点。

Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 05:08
Civilisations aren't determined by race or region, but by technology and the arts. The same race/region may see many different civilisations, and a single civilisation may encompass many races/regions/creeds.
The civilisations currently in place in India and China are both pretty recent. But in both places there were civilisations several thousand years ago. Personally I don't see any great difference between India and China in this respect.

文明不是种族或区域所决定的,它由技术和艺术决定。同样的种族、区域可能出现许多不同的文明,一个单一文明也可能包含了许多种族,区域,教义。
当前在印度和亚虎国际娱乐的文明都相当近代。但是两者数千年前在那块土地上就出现了文明。从我个人来说我在这发面看不出印度和亚虎国际娱乐有什么大的区别。

Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 05:23
“other religions like buddhism are only 600 over years old. ”
approximately 2300 years

“其他宗教像佛教只有600年历史。”
大约2300年历史。

Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 05:30
Anyway, I belive that the current archaeological evidences support the fact the the world oldest civilizations existed in Mesopotamia around 6000 years ago.
However, those civilizations were the oldest but not the longest LIVING civilization. Afterall, Sumerian and other Near Eastern civilizations were conquered and replaced by other empires. Historians generally believe that China have the longest continued history on earth (including the introduction on China of the History Articles of AE History forum).
Fact 1: Chinese people still use Chinese writing that is over 4000 years old.
Fact 2: The idea of Son of Heaven (political idea, similar to Plato's Philosophy King) has adhered since 3000 years ago. Even Mao held similar view. The Legalist philosophy of Warring States (around 500 BC) still influence Chinese legal system. In some way, the harsh laws of Singapore by Chinese elites may trace to such tradition.
Fact 3: Despite numerious attempts of foreign invasions, Chinese way of life remain, and the foreign invaders usually became Chinese in the end (such as Kublian Khan of Mongols or the later Manchurians

不管怎样,我相信当前的考古证据支持世界上最古老的文明是6000年前的美索不达米亚文明的事实。
然而,那些文明虽然古老但不是最古老的现存文明。毕竟,闪族人和其他近东文明被征服和被其他帝国取代。历史学家大体上认为亚虎国际娱乐拥有地球上最古老的现存文明。
事实1:亚虎国际娱乐人仍然使用超过4000年历史的汉字。
事实2:天子的概念(政治概念,与柏拉图的哲学王类似)从3000年前便开始坚持。甚至毛也持有类似的观点。亚虎国际娱乐战国的法家思想仍然影响着亚虎国际娱乐法律系统。在某些方面,亚虎国际娱乐精英制定的新加坡的酷刑可以上溯到如此的传统。
事实3:尽管经历了无数的外国入侵,亚虎国际娱乐人的生活方式保留了下来,外国侵略者通常最后成为了亚虎国际娱乐人(例如成吉思汗和后来的满洲人)。
 

第四页内容如下:由trytrytry翻译

Kids:
India is a different case. Although it did develope great empires, but they did not survive as Chinese did. Even today, they do not have a sole official language; elites still perfer to speak English (thats what my Indian friends told me. I welcome any correction). Ever since its unification around 200 BC, Chinese writing has been the official writing system for all people in China. Today, Mandarin is the official language.

印度是另外一种情况。虽然他们发展出了一个大帝国,但却不像亚虎国际娱乐那样持续了下来。甚至今天印度依然没有一个统一的官方语言。精英们还倾向于使用英语,这是我的印度朋友给我说的,如有不对欢迎指正。早在公元200年前统一之时,中文就作为全亚虎国际娱乐的官方文字被确定了下来。今天,汉语仍是亚虎国际娱乐官方语言。

Richard XIII:
Civilisation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization
Literally, a civilization is a complex society, as distinguished from a simpler society. Everyone lives in a society and a culture, but not everyone lives in a civilization. Historically, civilizations have shared some or all of the following traits (some of these were suggested by V. Gordon Childe):
Intensive agricultural techniques, such as the use of human power, crop rotation, and irrigation. This has enabled farmers to produce a surplus of food that is not necessary for their own subsistence.
A significant portion of the population that does not devote most of its time to producing food. This permits a division of labor. Those who do not occupy their time in producing food may instead focus their efforts in other fields, such as industry, war, science or religion. This is possible because of the food surplus described above.
The gathering of some of these non-food producers into permanent settlements, called cities.
A form of social organization. This can be a chiefdom, in which the chieftain of one noble family or clan rules the people; or a state society, in which the ruling class is supported by a government or bureaucracy. Political power is concentrated in the cities.
The institutionalized control of food by the ruling class, government or bureaucracy.
The establishment of complex, formal social institutions such as organized religion and education, as opposed to the less formal traditions of other societies.
Development of complex forms of economic exchange. This includes the expansion of trade and may lead to the creation of money and markets.
The accumulation of more material possessions than in simpler societies.
Development of new technologies by people who are not busy producing food. In many early civilizations, metallurgy was an important advancement.
Advanced development of the arts, including writing.
By this definition, some societies, like Greece, are clearly civilizations, whereas others like the Bushmen clearly are not. However, the distinction is not always clear. In the Pacific Northwest of the US, for example, an abundant supply of fish guaranteed that the people had a surplus of food without any agriculture. The people established permanent settlements, a social hierarchy, material wealth, and advanced artwork (most famously totem poles), all without the development of intensive agriculture. Meanwhile, the Pueblo culture of southwestern North America developed advanced agriculture, irrigation, and permanent, communal settlements such as Taos. However, the Pueblo never developed any of the complex institutions
Something like that and we have:
Mesopotamia-dead
Egypt-dead
China
India
Greece-dead
Byzantz-dead
Islam
Western civilization
Inca-dead
Aztec-dead
Still alive:
China - passing to western civilization
India - passing to western civilization
Islam fighting to exists.
Western civilization almost conquered the world.
So, in this moment the longest civilization is islam.

确切地说,文明是一种复杂的社会结合体,而为较为简单离散的社会所崇敬。每个人都生活在某个社会和某种文化中,但不是每个人都是文明体系的一员。 历史上,文明或多或少地存在以下特质 。某些资料来自戈登·柴尔德 。(澳裔英籍考古学家,译者注) 精耕细作式的农业技术,比如人力的使用,轮作,灌溉。这样能够让农民在保障生存的情况下生产出额外的粮食。 让人口的一部分从粮食生产中脱离是非常有意义的,这让部分劳动力就能够从事其他方面的活动,如工业,战争,科学和宗教等。这些都是建立在粮食增产的前提下。
这些非农业人口的聚集地的固定化,即城市的建立。 社会性组织的建立。比如酋长制的确立,由贵族或氏族的首领统治人民。或者成立一个城邦制社会,统治阶层由政府和官僚支撑。在城市中政治权力开始集中化。
食物配给的体制化,由统治阶层,政府或官僚体系控制。
比起其他相对传统落后的社会而言,更加复杂正规的社会体系的建立,比如有组织的宗教和教育行为。
更为复杂的经济物流体系,包括贸易的扩展,直至货币和市场的出现。
比起其它低阶社会更为深厚的物质财富的积累 。
非农业人口对新技术的开发,对于许多早期文明来说,冶金是一项重大的进步。
艺术的发展,包括书写。
根据这个定义,一些社会,像希腊就明显属于文明。而布须曼人则不是。当然这些特征不是总是非常清晰可辨,比如在美国西北的太平洋,有着大量丰富的鱼类资源,那里的人们无需进行任何农业活动。他们建立了一些永固的定居点,确立的社会体系,积累了物质财富,发展了艺术,却没有掌握农业密集种植技术。而且北美西南部的普埃布洛人(印第安人的一支,译者注)文化也发展出了高级农耕,灌溉,永固定居点,如Taos(地名,美国新墨西哥州内。译者注),即使如此,普埃布洛人也没能发展出任何复合的社会体系。
诸如此类的还有以下的一些
Mesopotamia-dead 美索不达米亚文明-消亡
Egypt-dead 埃及文明-消亡
China 中华文明
India 印度文明
Greece-dead 希腊文明-消亡
Byzantz-dead 拜占庭文明-消亡
Islam 伊斯兰文明
Western civilization 西方文明
Inca-dead 印加文明-消亡
Aztec-dead 阿兹台克文明-消亡
Still alive:
现存的文明:
China - passing to western civilization 中华文明-正向西方文明过渡
India - passing to western civilization 印度文明-正向西方文明过渡
Islam fighting to exists. 伊斯兰文明在为生存而挣扎
西方文明几乎征服了全世界.所以,现存的持续时间最长的文明是伊斯兰文明

flyingzone:
What do you mean by China and India "passing to Western civilization"? I think no Chinese or Indian person will agree with this statement.

你说亚虎国际娱乐和印度正向西方文明过渡是什么意思?我想没有一个亚虎国际娱乐人或印度人会同意你的说法。

Richard XIII:
They don't agree but TV, Hollywood movies, Mac Donald, Britney Spears, Beckam and so many icons of western civilization are already common and accepted in both countries. They move into western civilization and step by step they lose ancient customs and values. That's history.
For many people in Romania old cultural values are still alive but not for young generation, the same is valid everywhere.

他们说是不同意,但看看吧。。。电视,好莱坞电影,麦当劳,小甜甜和碧咸等等,如此众多对西方文明的崇拜在这两个国家已经司空见惯习以为常。他们正亦步亦趋地走向西方文明的怀抱,逐渐抛弃自己长久以来的古老传承和价值观。这,就是历史。
对许多人来说依然存活的罗马尼亚传统文化价值观已经不为当地年轻一代所认可,这种情况是很普遍的。我可没说这是一件好事。

perikles
what is the relation of the modern china with ancient chine?
The same for India.
And if there is any relation why Agupt has not any relation with it's past
?r Greece? I think that your opinion has conflict conclusions

现今的亚虎国际娱乐跟塞里丝国有什么关系?现今的印度跟天竺又有什么关系?如果真的有关系的话,现在的希腊跟古希腊就没有这种关系吗?我觉得你的结论很有问题。

Kids:
perikles, you sounds very much like Eurocentric imperialist:
This is what you said in the topic Greatest Empires:
"As far as the "Mongol" empire maybe i am ignorant but what do you mean? You mean the savages that was wondering around and slaughter people? You call this empire? Ghekins Chan was a big leader yes? And tell me something that mongols offer to humanity?"
"Greeks ,although they weren't empire by themselves (Byzantio, Macedonian) and of course Athens allience and Spartan allience may considered as empires, have offer a lot of things to civil. Britain is a gret empire. But India? what? the life after death? Great. China? that they use gun pownder for fireworks? I don't say that they are not gret empires but they worth less than greeks, romans, british even spain."
To you, all non-Western civilizations are barbaric (as you mentioned in Mongols) and less civilized (as you mentioned regarding of China and India). If you continue to state such bias and Orientalist view, I am afraid that I have to take drastic action against you which was the outcome for racist Master Blaster earlier

楼上,你的言论像个欧洲中心论的帝国主义者。
以下是你在“最伟大帝国”帖子里的话:“对于蒙古帝国可能有些无礼,但你的意思是那些到处游荡和屠杀的野蛮人?他们可以称之为帝国?成吉思汗是个伟大的领导者?告诉我他们到底对人类文明有过什么贡献?' “希腊城邦,虽然他们分开来不是帝国。但雅典联邦和斯巴达联邦当然可以看作是帝国,对人类文明大有贡献。日不落也是大帝国。而印度有什么?轮回转世?亚虎国际娱乐伟大么?因为他们把火药用来放烟花?我不是说他们不伟大,但是他们远没有希腊,罗马,不列颠有价值甚至连西班牙王国都比不上。”
对于你来说,所有非西方文明都是野蛮人或低级文明。如果你再继续发出这样对东方的偏见,我恐怕会对你这种族主义喷子采取严厉措施。

flyingzone:
Kids, could you locate the specific post in which Perikles made the statement calling the Mongolians "savages"? Next time when you see a post like that that is in blatant violation of AE rules, you should report to us immediately using the "report" button. It will be dealt with promptly. Even though we try to be as thorough as possible, the sheer number of posts that we have to read every day means that sometimes we do overlook some offending posts.
Thanks in advance.

楼上,你能给出那个喷蒙古人是野蛮人的帖子地址吗?下次你再看到这样的严重违反规定的帖子,你应该马上用“举报”功能告诉我们。我们会妥善处理的。虽然我们会尽量考虑周全,但因为我们每天浏览的帖子数目很多,有时会难免漏掉一些战帖。

ageia:
western civilization bases on greek civilization so it is a little bit wird to see the word dead next to greece :PPP if you mean that we dont wear anymore chlamys well yes you have a point.l
anyway i enjoy reading new testament without translation :) and voting for goverment i also love watching olympic games while eating κρεατοσφαιριδια
ps kids i think you must relax you are so nervous with all others that disagree with you.be cool man

西方文明根植于古希腊文明,所以有时候看到那些死亡的希腊文字感觉会有点奇异。像我们不再穿那种披身长袍了。
我现在又喜欢看未翻译的新约书了,还上街投票,一边看奥运一边吃κρεατοσφαιριδια(像是某种豆类食物)
楼上的,放轻松,你太紧张了。

Jeru:
Originally posted by ageia
ps kids i think you must relax you are so nervous with all others that disagree with you.be cool man
I hope you didn't dare saying that Greeks(or anyone else) have the longest living culture instead of China(nothing personal) and insult kids.

我想你不敢说希腊,或者其他文明,比中华文明更加持久,不带私人感情地。

ageia:
oh my god what have i done

噢卖糕的我做了什么。

Jeru:
Anyway i don't think there is any ancient living culture,all of them are modernized,of course China still uses pretty much the same language,but so does Greece,India still has the same religion,but the fact is that none of them actually have the same culture as their ancestors.

不管怎样,我认为没有一个持续到现在的古文明,因为他们全部都现代化了。当然亚虎国际娱乐现在还在使用着相当多的古语言,但希腊也一样。印度还信奉着同样的古宗教,但事实上他们都已不再拥有他们先祖的文化了。

konstantinius:
Lovely. We will never learn how to live together, thus we will never learn how to be truly civilized which also denotes tolerance and open-mindness.
It seems mostly to me that civilization developed INDEPENDENTLY and CONCURRENTLY in three major geographic areas between 8000-4000 BC:
-China, around the basin of the Yellow River (Yangtse?)
-India, along the Indus
-In the Fertile Crescent of the Tigris and Euphrates in what was then Sumeria and what is now a big, bloody mess...er, sorry, Iraq.
The question of "What is the oldest civilization" is misleading BECAUSE THERE ARE A BUNCH OF THEM AND NO SINGLE ONE IS GOD'S EXCLUSIVE GIFT TO HUMANITY.
The Greko-Roman civilization was/is pivotal in the development of WESTERN civilization. I love the Greeks and the Romans, they're MY people, MY soldiers; but I'll understand if an Indonesian or a Sub-Saharan African doesn't feel this way (and why should he share my view? me,with all my reading over the years, have CHOSEN not to read a single line about the history of those regions, thus in effect being bount by the same cultural restrictions that I intellectually like to condemn as "uppity" or "snobby"). Yes, I, to a certain extend, am an ethnocentrist too but I'm aware of it and don't try to justify it with shaky intellectual arguments.
Pericles, "pan mi Ellin varvaros esti?" Are we serious? Today? When the country is making a huge effort to leave the "psorokostaina" mentality behind and become a beacon of stability and cooperation in the region? Unless we are mortally threatened to the fabric of our existence, we should not fall back to those cliches.
Ponce de Leon wrote earlier:
"I personally believe that the longest civilization is yet to be perceived. My bets go on the USA as being the longest living civilisation...EVER."
BWAHAHAHA,--OHOHO,HAHAHAHHAAOHMYGODHHAHAHHAHAHDHGEEZGURGLEHAHH---falls off of chair with uncontrollable laughter, clutching stomach, dribble at the mouth, eyes rolling backwards...

可笑啊。我们永远学不会如何共处,所以我们永远不能学会真正的文明所带来的宽容和开放。
对我来说主要的文明都是公元前8000到4000年在三个不同的区域内各自发展起来的。
亚虎国际娱乐,围绕着黄河流域(或是长江?)
印度,沿着印度河
尼罗河文明和两河流域的苏美尔人,即是在现在战火纷飞的伊拉克。
谁是最古老的文明?这一问题被误导了。要知道,没有一个是神赐给人类的礼物。
希腊-罗马文明对西方文明的发展是关键的。我喜欢希腊人和罗马人,他们是我的人民和士兵。但我也明白一个印尼人或非洲人会不这么想。亚虎国际他们要跟我想的一样呢?我这些年读书学会一个道理,不要去单方面地选择历史脉络,因为会受到特定文化氛围的影响。我个人确切来说是个有种族优越感的人,但我会小心对待,不用冲动的情感代替理智去评判。

Pericles, "pan mi Ellin varvaros esti?" Are we serious? Today? When the
country is making a huge effort to leave the "psorokostaina" mentality
behind and become a beacon of stability and cooperation in the region?
Unless we are mortally threatened to the fabric of our existence, we
should not fall back to those cliches.

这段我翻不了。大概是奉劝上面那个希腊小子不要重回种族主义旧梏中去。
Ponce de Leon之前写到
“我个人认为,持续最久的文明还有待观察,我买美国赢。。。”

BWAHAHAHA,--OHOHO,HAHAHAHHAAOHMYGODHHAHAHHAHAHDHGEEZGURGLEHAHH---falls off of chair with uncontrollable laughter, clutching stomach, dribble at the mouth, eyes rolling backwards...

哇哈哈哈哈哈哈哦哦哦卖卖卖糕糕糕糕。。。笑得从椅子上跌下来打滚,肠胃直痛,满口喷饭,两眼翻白。。。

flyingzone:
With so many poorly-articulated, out-dated, and ill-informed ideas (some of which are borderline cultural supremacist/nationalist ones) expressed here, I can totally understand Kids's frustration.
But Kids, I do suggest you to take a deep breath and distance yourself from these threads for a while. Ignorance and narrow-mindedness are not something that you can change overnight especially if one has neither the will nor the capacity to change. At the end of the day, it's people like you who can truly enjoy and appreciate the beauty and the depth of other cultures while those who insist on seeing the world from the little confined corner will always stay where they are, living the same life and thinking the same thoughts all their lives, constantly fearful of "cultural contamination".
(Just as a footnote: Personally, I think it is so much more cool to be able to read great literary work written in other languages, explore different forms of government, and taste cuisines from all over the world. But what can I say. I am a multidimensional person who abhors my identity being defined solely by my nationality.)

这里有这么多拙劣的文笔,滞后的更新和不实的信息,包括一些种族主义和民族主义擦边球,我不得不理解Kids的挫败感。
但是Kids,我建议你做个深呼吸,离开一会。无礼和狭隘不是一夜之间就能改变的,更何况是那些不想改变的心胸。但是在每当太阳落山,都会有像你一样的人散步在世界各个角落,他们能够真正欣赏并沉浸与不同文化的带来的美好,害怕她遭受玷污。

Kids:
western civilization bases on greek civilization so it is a little bit wird to see the word dead next to greece :PPP if you mean that we dont wear anymore chlamys well yes you have a point.l
anyway i enjoy reading new testament without translation :) and voting for goverment i also love watching olympic games while eating κρεατοσφαιριδια
ps kids i think you must relax you are so nervous with all others that disagree with you.be cool man
Hey, I am not angry with you or anyone. I simply want to change some people's view on the narrow view of Western civilization.
You know, I hold a Honor Degree in Political Science and Minor in Classic Studies. I know a little bit of Ancient Greeks (took only the Beginner Greeks in 1 year university).
In 2004, I also attained the Opening and Closing Ceremonies of Olympic Game in Athens.
I admire the contributions that Greeks contributed to our world. When I told a local university student from University of Athens about how lucky modern Greeks have so many ancient remains, he replied that the greatest gift that Greeks gave us (humanity), is the revolution in thought.
To think rational instead of irrational, to practice science instead of superstition, to adhere justice instead of injustice, and to respect love instead of hate are what I have leraned from our forefather from Gr eece.
Likewise, we should all think outside of box, tackle an issue without solely reliance on any personal judgement or interpretation. This is what I tried to demonstrate earlier with Master Blaster or other members. I am not in favorite with any civilization (afterall, I have a minor in Classics, not Chinese).
I remember the first sculpture that I saw in the Museum of Athens was not truely Greek, but a copy of Egyptian sculpture. This clearly shown how ancient Greeks acquried Egyptian art during the Archaic era. From writing to mathematics, the Greeks of Archaic Age were inluenced heavly from its neighbors. It is not surprise to find that the first generation of Greek philosophers were found outside of mainland Greece or in Asia Minor.

嘿,我并没有对你们当中任何人生气,我只是想改变某些人西方文明的狭隘思想。
你知道,我有一个政治科学的荣誉学士学位和一个古典学科的专科学位。对于古希腊我是知道一点的。
2004年我也出席了奥运的开幕式和闭幕式。
我欣赏希腊对世界做出的贡献。当时我对一个雅典大学的学生说现代希腊拥有这么多古迹真是太幸运了,他说希腊带来的思想革命才是给人类的最大礼物。
故理性而不荒谬,科学而不迷信,公正而不偏颇,博爱而不愤恨,这是我从希腊先哲那里学到的。
同样的,我们都应该跳出井外。以多元的角度解决争端。这也是我一直以来对其他会员所展示的,而我本人并不对任何文明有所偏爱。我专科学的是古典学,不是中文。
我还记得在雅典博物馆里看到的第一尊雕像并不是希腊式的,而是对埃及风格的模仿。这清楚地说明了古风时代希腊人是如何欣赏埃及艺术的。从书写到数学,希腊先人们从他们的邻居那学到了很多。可以发现,希腊第一代哲学家都不是在希腊本土而是在小亚细亚。

flyingzone
Originally posted by konstantinius
The Greko-Roman civilization was/is pivotal in the development of WESTERN civilization. I love the Greeks and the Romans, they're MY people, MY soldiers; but I'll understand if an Indonesian or a Sub-Saharan African doesn't feel this way (and why should he share my view? me,with all my reading over the years, have CHOSEN not to read a single line about the history of those regions, thus in effect being bount by the same cultural restrictions that I intellectually like to condemn as "uppity" or "snobby"). Yes, I, to a certain extend, am an ethnocentrist too but I'm aware of it and don't try to justify it with shaky intellectual arguments. “

希腊-罗马文明对西方文明的发展是关键的。我喜欢希腊人和罗马人,他们是我的人民和士兵。但我也明白一个印尼人或非洲人会不这么想。亚虎国际他们要跟我想的一样呢?我这些年读书学会一个道理,不要去单方面地选择历史脉络,因为会受到特定文化氛围的影响。我个人确切来说是个有种族优越感的人,但我会小心对待,不会用冲动的情感代替理智去评判。”

Very well said, konstantinius. I agree that all of us are "ethnocentric" to a certain extent. All of us are bound by our own educational, socio-economic, and cultural background. The key is, like you say, to be keenly aware of it and not to "justify it with shaky intellectual arguments".
I still believe, though, that as modern people, we should try to educate ourselves about other cultures - even minimally. Given the easy access to information, I find NOT even taking the most minute effort to try to learn and know about what's happening or what's happened in other parts of the world very unforgivable. I am not asking people to become Islamologist or Sinologist or Africanologist. But I find the narrow-mindedness exhibited in some of the forumers here very disheartening.

说的真好,konstantinius。我同意某种意义上我们都带有"种族优越感”。我们都是在各自的教育体系,社会经济,文化背景中成长的。关键是,如你所说,必须小心对待,不用冲动的情感代替理智去评判。
而且我还相信,作为现代社会的人,我们应该教授不同的文化,即使是最低限度的。从给予的信息的路径,我发现没有一点关于世界其他地区的消息,哪怕那里发生了多么不可饶恕的事情。 我不是要每一个人都成为伊斯兰学家或亚虎国际娱乐学家或者非洲学家。但论坛里一些成员狭窄的心胸真的让我很失望沮丧。

Jeru:
@flyingzone
From what i've read Kid's is the one narrowminded and trully obsessed with Chinese culture,oh and lets not forget calling everyone "racists","eurocentric" and many more just because they argue with him.
Maybe you should encourage him not being such a Western-hater.

Kid's的言论里我发现他才是个心胸狭隘,并且被亚虎国际娱乐文化勾了魂去的人。别忘了他一口一个“种族分子”,“欧洲中心主义者”之类,就因为有人跟他的意见不一。
也许你应该奉劝他不要再做一个“仇视西方者”

flyingzone:
I don't see Kids being a Western-hater at all. He just doesn't let his ethnicity and nationality blind the way he sees the world. I find that very commendable and admirable.
Calling him someone "obsessed with Chinese culture" is simply ridiculous. I am the moderator of the East Asian forum and I do not recall him making posts there. He is just trying to look at the world from a MODERN perspective unfettered by artificially-defined national borders. Knowing him, I think he would be equally eager to "defend" the contribution of Indian culture, African culture, Islamic culture, and you know what, even Western culture. I can't see someone like that being "narrow-minded".
If people do not understand Kids's arguments, at least try to understand konstantinius's.

我完全没觉得Kids是个“仇视西方者”。他只是没有让他的种族和国籍身份蒙蔽了观察世界的道路。这是可敬而值得赞赏的。
说他“亚虎国际娱乐文化勾了魂去”是荒谬的。我是东亚论坛的版主,我从没叫他到那发帖。他只是以现代的视角,不受人为约束地去看这个世界。我了解他,他会以同样平等的态度去“捍卫”印度文化,非洲文化,伊斯兰文化,甚至西方文化。我真是没见过这样的“狭隘心胸”。
如果人们不了解Kids'的主张,至少去试着明白konstantinius的吧。
Kids:
I am not obssessed with China or any civilization. Why you try to attack me personally? I didnt even talk to you before. Read my previous posts. I already said I have a minor in Classic Studies and even took the beginner Greek. I even attained the Olympic Games in Athens. I use China as an example to show that Greece or Europe was not the only advanced civilization.
If you think I am bias, please report to the administrater, otherwise stop all these nonsenses.

我没有被亚虎国际娱乐或其他任何文明勾了魂去。你为何要对我人生攻击?我甚至没跟你交谈过。看看我之前的帖子,我已经说了我有古典学副科学位并学习了早期希腊史。我甚至参加了雅典的奥运会。我以亚虎国际娱乐为例子来证明世界不是只有希腊和欧洲是先进文明的。
如果你认为我带有偏见,请上报管理员,否则停止这些无理的行为。

Jeru:
Originally posted by flyingzone
I don't see Kids being a Western-hater at all. He just doesn't let his ethnicity and nationality blind the way he sees the world. I find that very commendable and admirable.
Calling him someone "obsessed with Chinese culture" is simply ridiculous. I am the moderator of the East Asian forum and I do not recall him making posts there. He is just trying to look at the world from a MODERN perspective unfettered by artificially-defined national borders. Knowing him, I think he would be equally eager to "defend" the contribution of Indian culture, African culture, Islamic culture, and you know what, even Western culture. I can't see someone like that being "narrow-minded".
If people do not understand Kids's arguments, at least try to understand konstantinius's.
Although it's off topic,Kid's posts are mostly about China and how China is superior than other cultures(says that Indian culture isnt compared to Greece's while China's is.Arrogance in one word).
He might not post in East Asian forum but he really should do.
Maybe you knowing him won't let you see his arrogance and rudness,which i would totally understand in a way.
If you still think i'm wrong then accept my apologies.

虽然有些偏题,Kid's的帖子大部分都在说亚虎国际娱乐,说亚虎国际娱乐如何比其他文明优越。印度文明比不上希腊但中华文明可以,傲慢自大。
他也许没在东亚论坛发帖但他真应该去发。
也许你知道他刻意隐藏了他的傲慢和粗鲁,但我一眼就看穿啦。
如果你还是觉得我是错的那么接受我的道歉吧。

Kids:
"Kid's posts are mostly about China and how China is superior than other cultures"
Did i ever say China is SUPERIOR to India or Greece? I list the books that were published by Classical experts, but I didnt hold any bias view toward any civilization.

引用“Kid's的帖子大部分都在说亚虎国际娱乐,说亚虎国际娱乐如何比其他文明优越。”
我有说过亚虎国际娱乐比印度和希腊优越吗?我列举的书都是由古典学专家所著。但我对任何文明都没有偏见。
 

第五页正文,Jonathan翻译

Vivek Sharma
I noticed the tremandous amount of intellectual debate on this subject. I admit that I am not the most knowledgeble person on earth to be able todecide on the above subject, but would just like to put up some articles / facts about the Indian civilization.
Please read & comment.

我留意到关于这一话题大量有深度的评论。我承认我不是这世上拥有对这一话题相关知识最丰富的那个,但我想贴一些关于印度文明的文章,或者说是大家公认的关于印度文明的事实。
敬请阅读并予以评论。

Vivek Sharma
It has been long claimed that the aryans invaded India & that the Dravidians are a different race alltogether. Please read excerpts of an article by David Frawley on this subject.

长久以来,人们相信是雅利安人入侵了印度,而且总而言之德拉威人是一不同的人种。请读下我摘录的David Frawley写的关于这方面的文章。

The British ruled India, as they did other lands, by a divide-and-conquer strategy. They promoted religious, ethnic and cultural divisions among their colonies to keep them under control. Unfortunately some of these policies also entered into the intellectual realm. The same simplistic and divisive ideas that were used for interpreting the culture and history of India. Regrettably many Hindus have come to believe these ideas, even though a deeper examination reveals they may have no real objective or scientific basis.

英国统治了印度,其手法同英国征服其他国家一样,采用了各个击破的战术。英国通过宗教、种族还有文化来维持其在殖民地的统治。不幸的是与此同时,一些政策也同时传入了这些文明国度。
同样一些单纯易导致分歧的想法也被用来诠释印度的文化和历史。令人遗憾的是不少印度人开始相信这些,而且经过更加深入的研究后有证据表明他们毫无客观性及科学根据。

One of these ideas is that India is a land of two races - the lighter- skinned Aryans and the darker-skinned Dravidians - and that the Dravidians were the original inhabitants of India whom the invading Aryans conquered and dominated. From this came the additional idea that much of what we call Hindu culture was in fact Dravidian, and later borrowed by Aryans who, however, never gave the Dravidians proper credit for it. This idea has been used to turn the people of south India against the people of north India, as if the southern ers were a different race.

这些想法中有涉及印度有两种人种—浅肤色的是雅利安人还有深肤色的德拉威人。德拉威人是印度的原住民,后因雅利安人的入侵而被征服和统治。从这方面看,我们大多数人所谓的印度文明事实上是德拉威文明,只是后来被雅利安人所借鉴而已。然而雅利安人却从未给德拉威文明以适当的“名分”。这一切都使得印度南部的人民与印度北部的人民产生对抗与斗争,就好象南部人民和他们不是同一人种(国家的人)。

Vivek Sharma
ARYAN INVASION- FICTITIOUS FABRICATION
by Padman Govindarajan
In the history book currently in use in the Indian schools, the beginning of the Vedic civilisation coincides with Aryan invasion. History, which records actual events, accomplished facts and hard realities, should have nothing to do with personal beliefs or pre-conceived notions and should depict factually the actual happenings. Though history deals with the past, it has its own contribution to make in tackling the current problems and in shaping the future. In his“Discovery of India”, Pundit Nehru says: “Out of that distant past, which is history and the present, which is the burden of to-day, the future of India is gradually taking shape. We must have an intellectual understanding of these mighty processes of history. We must have even more, an emotional awareness of our past and present, in order to try to give right direction to the future.”

在现在印度学校使用的历史教科书里,吠陀文明的起源是与雅利安人入侵联系在一起的。历史—是记录真实发生的事件,它不应该同个人的信仰或是虚构的事实联系起来,而是应该还原事件的真相。虽然历史都是过去发生的事,但其作用就是为处理当今的问题提供借鉴。在其“发现印度”一文中,Pundit Nehru谈到

Cywr
Wouldn't this be better suited in the South Asian forum?
And if you are copying and pasting, shouldn't you be giving credit to the original writers?

这贴发在南亚论坛上是不是更合适些呢?
如果你只是在复制和粘贴,那么你是否先要得到原创的认可呢?

Vivek Sharma
Hi,Sorry for posting large ones on this. Just wanted to clear some cobwebs.

Hi,不好意思贴了这么长篇幅。只是想理一理…

Thanks moderator for reminding me.

谢谢斑竹的提醒。

onstantinius
Holy s..t, this is a long entry. Lots of questions here, I didn't even have time to finish reading it, nor am I familiar with anything enough to debate anything.

天哪!真是长篇大论啊!还有些问题,我还没时间来得及把其读完,而且我对这方面也知之甚少,无法发表评论。

Are these your thoughts or are you reposting from a book(/article/magazine/other media source?

这些都是你个人的看法吗?还是转载自什么书/文章/杂志/其他媒体资源?

...and, yes, Cywr is right, if you're using other sources, it is preferable to post bibliography otherwise the copyrigth fairy might come out of the woods, crawl under yoyr comforter at night, and give a bite you-know-where

还有,Cywr说的对,如果你是转载自其它地方的话,最好是注明出处,不然拥有版权的家伙会冒出来,让你寝食不安,并且,你知道的,在你那块咬你一口。呵呵。

..on a more serious level

回到正题

a) what is Vedic

什么是梵文?

b) what is Dravidian

谁是德拉威人?

gcle2003

Largely propaganda.

长篇大论啊!

Hardly worth going through in detail.

没必要如此详细!

Vivek Sharma
Vedic refers to the Indian Culture / religion & Dravidas were one of the tribes inhabiting the southern part of the country.

梵文牵涉到印度文明和印度宗教,还有德拉威曾是居住在该国南部地区的一个部落

Kids
"Largely propaganda"

“长篇大论”

What did you mean?

这话什么意思?

BigL
If it Aint Greece the most advanced empire in the world or Rome the Greatest empire ever
THEN ITS PROPAGANDA

如果(古)希腊不是世界上最强大的帝国,罗马不是世界上最大的帝国,那么这一切都是胡说八道!

Vivek Sharma
Agreed I have put in large text. But thats needed to argue & substantiate the viewpoint.

同意,我是用了很大篇幅。但那是用来讨论并予以证明我的观点的。

I dont agree with the statement that its not worth going in detail. Infact these are logical arguements with substantive data to back up.

我不同意有人说的什么没有必要如此详细。事实上这些都以详尽的例证以一步一步从逻辑上论证我的观点的。

I am not saying that Indian culture is the oldest or the greatest or using any superlative degrees of comparison. for me greatness is a relative term. some call military conquests great, some call reforms & political systems great etc.. etc..

我并没有说印度文明是最古老及最伟大的,而且我也没有使用最高级来形容。这都是相对而言。一些人号召要武力征服,而另一些人要求通过改革及在政治体制上做出变革……

Its a viewpoint, the forgotten reality, I want to project which is contrary to the normal history we are taught , which is a result of many factors.

这只是一种观点,一种可能被遗忘的事实,我出于许多原由提出了这一于我们接受传统教育时相悖的观点。

Flyingzone
Originally posted by Jeru

最初发帖者为Jeru

Although it's off topic,Kid's posts are mostly about China and how China is superior than other cultures(says that Indian culture isnt compared to Greece's while China's is.Arrogance in one word).

尽管有些偏题,Kid的帖子主要涉及亚虎国际娱乐还有中华文明如何比其他文明优秀的(印度文明是无法和(古)希腊文明相提并论的,然而中华文明可以。一句话,那就是傲慢!)

He might not post in East Asian forum but he really should do.

他应该去东亚论坛说他这套东西!

Maybe you knowing him won't let you see his arrogance and rudness,which i would totally understand in a way.

也许你还没有看出他的傲慢与粗鲁,但我却把则一切看得清清楚楚。

If you still think i'm wrong then accept my apologies.

如果你仍然坚持我的观点是错的,那么请接受我的道歉。

Why should someone interested in ancient China only be allowed to post in the East Asian section while those who talk incessantly and obsessively about the Greek civilization can post in the "General History" section? if that is not Eurocentrism, I don't know what that is.

亚虎国际对古代中华文明感兴趣的只允许在东亚版发贴,而对(古)希腊文明喋喋不休,观点偏执的却能在(世界)通史版发贴?如果那不是欧洲中心主义在作怪,那又是什么呢?

No, I don't know Kids, just as I don't personally know anyone here. As a matter of fact, it's the first time I interacted with him on this forum as far as I can remember. I just look at people's arguments as they are presented.
Apologies accepted.

不,我不认识kid,就像我和这的任何人一样,没有任何私交。事实上,据我所知,这是我第一次在这论坛和他有些互动。我只是在读其他人提出的观点而已。
接受你的道歉。

Ageia
kids you always say(so that you can support your opinion as a scientific one)that you have a degree on that on this etc.Well first of all i know one million scientists with a better education than yours that dont believe what you believe !!!so be cool man or else show us a book you wrote in order to know how reliable you are in your job(bibliography included) :PP

kids,你一直说你是学这方面的什么的,而且说什么有科学(证据)来支持你的观点……。那好,首先我想告诉你我知道这世上少说有成千上万的接受过更好教育的科学家不认同你那些观点。所以还是冷静下吧,或者你倒是拿本你写的书给我们看看以证明你的实力啊?

this is a opinion you have that some scholars(few of them)support, others(the most of them)dont ...so be cool.

你的观点是一些(很少)的学者支持你,其他的(大多数)的学者不支持……所以还是冷静下吧!

You know we are not aliens we do know some things and some of us maybe could have a degree in history.dont you think?so dont be so rascist with other's opinion.Tell your opinion,listen if you want to the other's opinions and thats it.you are not allowed to insult everyone man!!!

你知道我不是“外星人”,对一些事物还是略知一二,而且我们中的一些人学的还是历史专业。对吧?所以对于他人的看法不要带有偏见!可以告诉大家你的看法,但也得倾听他人的,就这么点要求!不允许侮辱其他任何人,知道吗???!!!

and flying zone please stop with the poem you always write on your posts eurocentrism,eurocentrism bla bla you remind me communist that accusse everyone that disagree with him as fascist!!!

还有flying zone, 别再作诗了,也别老是宣扬你那欧洲中心主义!这使我想起共产主义者老是谴责异己者为法西斯一样!

i will stop posting there not only because of your behaviour but also because my english as i already said are very bad so that i can't express or write well what i think.

我不会再在那发贴了,不仅是因为你的这种行为,还有我早说过了我的英语非常糟糕,常常文不达意!

ys:dialogue is a greek word maybe thats why you dont like it :PP

是的,对话这是个希腊词汇,也许这就是你不喜欢这词的原因吧!

sorry if i insult you guys

对不起,朋友!恕我冒犯!

Konstantinius
What exactly is the point of this argument? I'm completely missing it. These are my points of confusion (maybe the people with all the degrees can help me out ):

争论这些有何意义?我都成了丈二和尚了。以下是困扰我的地方(也许有资深的朋友能帮我答疑解惑):

There's seems to be a serious argument as to whether there was Inoeuropean infusion in the north of India. If there were, then it is assumed that the Indian civilization has Indoeuropean roots. The counter-argument holds that the darker-skinned Dravidian inhabitants of the southern part of the sub-continent are the true initiators of Indian civ. because they never lost the ancient Vedic roots of Indian culture. Is this the core question?

似乎这一争论的关键在于印度北部是否有欧洲注入的“血液”。如果确有这种情况,那么印度文明可能是印欧文明的分支。反而言之,居住在印度南部次生大陆的深色皮肤的德拉威人才是印度文明真正的创建者,因为他们从未遗弃印度文明的吠陀根。这是不是就是核心问题呢?

Another point made is that Western ethocentrists are responsible for falsifying the true dates of Vedic civilization in order to make it appear more recent and, thus, coinciding chronologically with the Ayan invasion and Indoeuropean infusion.

还有一点是西方的种族优越感使得他们篡改了吠陀文明形成的真实时间,这样使得吠陀文明看起来并不那么悠久,从时间顺序与雅利安人入侵与印欧融合相一致。

Directly linked to the above argument is the conclusion that the Indian civilization is, indeed, the oldest. Am I correct?

直奔这一争论的结论就是印度文明,千真万确是历史最悠久的文明。我说的没错吧?

My questions: what does archaeology have to say about all this? Anyone on the Forum with a degree in that? I think archaeology would be the most reliable source on this matter.

我的问题:考古学家看了这些后会有何想法?这里有人是学考古专业的吗?我认为对于这一争论,考古学家最有发言权。

Also, anyone knows any good books on the subject? And, since I mentioned books, the Forum member Vivek Sharma should post the sources of all the information.

还有,有谁能提供一些关于这方面的好书?既然我提到书了,那么Vivek Sharma就应该告知一下这些信息和资料的来源。
 

第七页正如:由duke88翻译

Originally posted by Bulldog
The MesoAmerican people still exist with strong links to their ancients, they should be considered among the longest living civillisations.

中美洲人仍然还很顽强的延续着他们古人的传承,他们应该被认可为是最古老的文明之一。

gcle2003:
That a people still exists is not the same thing as a civilisation still existing.
The civilisation in Central America today is not at all like the civilisation there a thousand years ago.
If you were simply going by the oldest continuously occupied political unit, then the oldest known is pretty certainly the city of Jericho. But again, today's civilisation there has nothing to do with the civilisation of 11,000 years ago (or whatever).

一群人还存在与一个文明还存在是不同的。
现今的中美洲文明与一千年前的文明是不完全相同的。
如果你是简单的以最悠久的连续被占领的政治中心为选项,那么最悠久的城市相当的肯定是杰里科(约旦一古城)。然而,现今的文明与11000年前的文明是没有任何的关联的(诸如此类的事)。

perikles:
Tell us one modern country that its current civilization has relation with 4000 years ago?Greeks are not having relations, Indians also, Chinese etc.
Tell us one because in this way of thinking the modern civilizations are just come up from the sky. Nobody has relation with the old ones accordings to some posts here.

告诉我们一个现代国家它现今的文明还和4000千年前有联系的?
希腊没有联系了,印度和亚虎国际娱乐同样也没有,及其他。
告诉我们一个,就是由于这种的思维方式,现代的文明就像是凭空而生的。依照这里的么些评论没有任何人和旧事物是有联系的。

Originally posted by perikles
Tell us one modern country that its current civilization has relation with 4000 years ago?
Greeks are not having relations, Indians also, Chinese etc.
Tell us one because in this way of thinking the modern civilizations are just come up from the sky. Nobody has relation with the old ones accordings to some posts here.

Jeru:
Actually it's a dead end, cause today's civilizations are the evolved form of the ancient ones, although i must admitt that the longest civilization with the less influence from other cultures and less modernized must be Chinese.

其实这是一条死胡同,因为现今的文明是从古代演变而来,然而我必须承认亚虎国际娱乐是拥有最悠久与极少受其它文化和现代化影响的文明。

Vivek Sharma:
I beg to differ. India culture & religions is still the same as it was at least 7000 years ago, at the same place also. So many people defeated them militarily, but the culture is intact & prospering.

谨;恕我有不同的意见。印度文化和宗教至少还是和7000年前没有任何区别,并且在同样个地区。很多人军事上战胜了他们,但它的文化依然昌盛和未受影响。

gcle2003:
No country today has the same civilisation that it had 1000 years ago, probably even 100 years ago.

没有一个国家现今还拥有文明像1000年前,甚至可能连100年前都没有。

Originally posted by Vivek Sharma
I beg to differ. India culture & religions is still the same as it was at least 7000 years ago, at the same place also. So many people defeated them militarily, but the culture is intact & prospering.
But that's changing the subject. Culture and religion do not a civilisation make. Yes Hinduism is the same as it was a long time ago (I'm not so certain about that 7,000 years ago). But back then you didn't have Muslims, Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists and Christians - and indeed secularists - making up a multi-religious society.
India's music is pretty ancient too. But it's literature certainly isn't. Rushdie and Seth aren't writing Vedic hymns. And its technology and its economy are certainly way way different.
Not too many people in ancient India spoke English, either, but now it's an official language. They didn't elect political leaders. I could go on, but on almost any count you can think of India's current civilisation is nothing like what it was even 100 years ago.
India today has much much more in common with the rest of the world than it does with its ancient past. And the same goes for every other country.

但那是偷换概念。文化和宗教不会产生一个文明。是的,印度教还是和以前一样(我不太确定是不是与7000年前一样)。但当时你没有穆斯林徒,锡克教徒,耆那教徒,佛教徒和基督徒跟实际意义上的现世主义者来构造一个多样化的宗教社会。
印度的音乐同样相当古老。但它的文学毫无疑问不是。拉什迪(印度裔英国小说家)和维格罗姆·赛特不写吠陀赞美诗。而且它的工艺和它的经济体系毫无疑问的是非常不同。
而且,不是很多的人在古印度说英语,但是现在它是官方语言。他们不能选举自己的政治领袖。我可以不停歇的继续举例下去,肯定的是你几乎所能想到的现今印度文明都不会与它100年前的相像。
今日的印度与其他国家的共同之处,要比对自己古时候的文明多得多。这也同样适用于其他所有的国家。

Aster Thrax :
I would definately disagree with Greeks and Native Americans. The oldest living civilizations would almost definatley be peoples from Sub-Saharan africa and after them, Indians, Egyptians or Sumerians

我肯定不同意是希腊人与印第安人。最悠久的文明差不多肯定是撒哈拉以南的非洲地区人民,而在他们之后是印度人,埃及人或苏美尔人 。

perikles:
Greeks spoke almost the same language, They have almost the same alphabet. We live in the same place. Whats the difference?

希腊人几乎说同样的语言,他们几乎有同样的字母系统。我们居住在同样的地方。这有什么区别吗?

gcle2003:
You have the internet? Last time I was in Athens I flew there in an aeroplane and I stayed at a hotel that served pretty good Bloody Marys. When my kids were at school there they watched TV and played soccer. I didn't see a single philosopher walking in the Academy. The citizens didn't meet in the Agora to decide on ostracism. And there was actually a national government for the WHOLE of Greece - Athens wasn't fighting Sparta, and no other cities were fighting each other either.
And so on. Socrates and Plato, brought back to life, wouldn't have known where they were or what was going on.

你有网络吗?上次我搭飞机去雅典待在一家旅馆,那家旅馆提供非常棒的血玛丽(一种番茄汁掺伏特加的鸡尾酒)当我的小孩在那上学,他们看电视和踢足球。在那里的学院我没有看到一个哲学家。
公民没在广场里开民众大会用陶片放逐法(是古雅典民众大会中的一种特殊投票法)的方式来投票。而且那里竟然有个国民政府为全希腊服务。雅典没在和斯巴达打仗,而且其它的城市和城市之间也没有在打仗。诸如此类的事。就算现在苏格拉底与柏拉图复活,他们也将不知道自己在那来,或现代的希腊正在发生什么事情。

perikles :
You must be joking.
You refering to persons that lived 4000 years ago.
The issue is that maybe these people are of course not in life, And of course the way of living changed. BUT the principles, language, alphabet and the love of the nation are steady. Civilization is not only the people but is the beliefs and the principles. Accordin to you there are three generations of civilization. The ancient, medi and modern. NO relation between all these. The principles we have now (Each nation) is no relation with the past. As i said came from the sky. From scratch.
As long as athns and Sparta This means that France Spain, Germany, China, Japan, Turkey and many other nations are TOTALLY different from their past because their state and borders have changed.

你肯定是在开玩笑。你提起的这些人是活在4000年前。问题是这些人当然不会复活,而且当然生活方式会改变。但是,原则,语言,字母和对民族的爱是不变的。文明不光只是指人,而是信念和原则。
依照你的说法,文明划分为三个时代。上古,中古与近代,这三个时代没有任何的关联。我们现在所拥有的原则(每个民族)是和过去没有任何的联系。就像我说的那样,凭空而生的。从零开始。
只要雅典和斯巴达。 这意味着,法国,西班牙,德国,亚虎国际娱乐,日本,土耳其和其他许多的国家都和自己的过去完全不同,因为他们的国家和边界已经改变。

perikles :
In Which hotel you stayed? :)
sorry for the offtopic!

你住在那一个旅馆?:)
不好意思跑题了!

gcle2003:
Who would that be? If you mean Socrates and Plato you need to go and study either history or arithmetic.

他们是谁?如果你是指苏格拉底和柏拉图,那你需要去学一门历史或者算数。

I never said anything of the sort, and I don't assert that at all. What I do hold is that civilisations develop and change, most often through technological innovation, but also through artistic, literary, political and religious innovation. Those changes are frequently enough - though they may have been gradual - to say that there is now a different civilisation.
Apart from all the other things I mentioned, modern Greece is a nominally Christian country, though, as in most of the world it is not as Christian as it was.
To claim that the civilisation that exists in Greece today is the same civilisation that existed there in the ancient world, during the Roman and Byzantine empires, under the Ottomans, or even in the mid-nineteenth century is patently absurd as it would be to say it of any other country.

我从来没有说过分时代,而且我也完全不主张那样。但我所持有的观点是文明不断的随着发展而改变,最常见的是通过科技创新,但也通过艺术,文学,政治和宗教的创新。那些改变往往已足够。尽管那些改变是渐进的。现在可以说有了个不同的文明。
抛开我提到过的所有其他事情,现代希腊是一个名义上基督教国家,然而,世界上大多数基督教并不在是基督教。
声称现今希腊所存在的文明和古希腊文明是相同的,那就像说罗马帝国,拜占庭帝国和奥斯曼帝国,甚至到十九世纪中叶都是相同,这显然是荒谬的。这同样适用于世界上所有的国家。

Well, they are.

不错,他们就是如此。

perikles:
I know PLaton and Socrates better than you think. It is not 4000 but approx 2500. I misstyped that. So you make your point. The modern civilizations has not relation with rhe old ones.When we say the civilizations ae evolved that means that they are not the same with he ancient ones but there are some common points. I can't understand why you find difficult to accept this common sense

我了解苏格拉底与柏拉图比你想象的要多。不是4000年,而是大致在2500年前后。我之前打错了。所以你阐述了你的观点。现代文明和古代文明是没有关联的。当我们谈到文明进化,这意味着它们和古老的文明是不完全一样的,但它们是有共同点的。我不明白亚虎国际你会发现很难接受这个常识。

Bulldog:
Perikles your argument is severly flawed, Greeks today are not the same or a continuation of the ancient Hellenic people.
First there is the fact that the city states did not keep independance from the ancient times to today and the people were ruled by other powers who bought their culture, rule and also migrations to the area. Slavs, Romans, "Sea People's", Turks, Venetians, Geneoise, North Africans etc Then there's religion that was changed by Romans by force and so on.
The longest living civillization is probobly the Chinease, they have their language, religion, culture and were only ruled briefly by foreign powers.

Perikles你的论点是有少许漏洞,现今的希腊人不是古希腊人所延续下来的。
首先的事实是,国家与城市并没有从古代一直保持独立到现今,而且它的人民被其他的力量给统治,侵略者也带来了他们的文化,统治着他们以及迁移到该地区。斯拉夫人,罗马人,“海人”,土耳其人,威尼斯人,热那亚人,北非人等等。于是罗马人强制性的改变他们的宗教信仰等等。
最悠久的文明大概是亚虎国际娱乐人,他们有自己的语言,宗教,文化和只是很短暂的被外来者给统治。

Jeru:
Well the greeks despite being ruled by other powers also kept their language and culture,i'll give them that.
好吧,希腊人尽管被其他力量给统治,但同样他们也保留了语言和文化,这点我是必须给他们的。

BigL:Masai
They did....?

他们有吗?

Odin:
I see an Indocentrist crank has hijacked this thread. It is a FACT that cental Asian nomads migrated into Northern India as a result of the power vacuum resulting from the collapse of the Indis Valley civilization and that those nomads spoke Proto-Indo-Iranian.
Ugh, I'm sick of nationalist idiots making up BS to stroke thier big, fat egos. The "Europeans made the theory so it must be racist" nonsense is a idiotic logical fallacy.

我看到一个以印度为中心的怪人把这个论坛给劫持了。事实上中亚的游牧民族迁移进北印度,结果因权力真空导致印度河流域文明崩溃,并且那些游牧民族说的是原始印度-伊朗语。唷, 我受够了民族主义白痴编造一些狗屎来抚摸他们的大阴茎。“欧洲人得出的理论那一定是带有种族歧视的” 胡说八道,这简直是一个白痴的逻辑谬论。

perikles :
Well China was all the Time self ruled. On the other hand it is True that Greeks had many conquerors and foreign Dictators if i can say that. But as it mentioned we kept our language and many other characteristics.
Anyway very old civilizations are those in Africa like Masai. They are really old. Of course as a civilization, without wanted to consider them worthless (they are not) , it did't say much comparing with Greece, China and Egypt. Of course Japan has a really old and extraordinary civilization. What do you think of Japan. I don't know much and nobody is talking about it.

好啦,亚虎国际娱乐是一直自我统治的。从另一方面说,真实的是希腊人有许多征服者和外国独裁者,如果我可以怎么形容。但是就像我提到的那样,我们保留了自己的语言和很多其他的特征。不管怎么说非常古老的文明是那些在非洲的马赛人。他们是真的很古老。当然作为一个文明,不想认为他们是毫无价值的(他们不是)提起他们的次数对比希腊,亚虎国际娱乐和埃及那是非常少的。当然,日本有个非常古老和非凡的文明。你是怎么看待日本的。我了解的不是很多也没有人说其他。

Originally posted by perikles
In Which hotel you stayed? :)
sorry for the offtopic!

gcle2003:
The Air France one named after a plane - the Caravel? That was in 1976.
My kids were at school there in '74-'75, but it was mostly their mother that went out to visit them.

是用一架法国航空飞机命名的,是叫轻快帆船吗?那是在1976年。我的孩子74-75在那上学,不过大多数的时候,都是由他们的母亲去探望他们的。
 

第八页正文如下,由熊孩子翻译

gcle2003:
The oldest civilization with a practiced form of worship is not Hinduism. Hinduism is a European term applied in the 18th century to explain the complexity of the various systems of belief in India. Because there are som many. I believe the Dravidians(Dravidianism) is the oldest. Hinduism and even the Abrahamic religions are rooted in one way or another as well as all other major philosophies. Christianity,Islam etc. Try researching "The Vedas" and find out how mix Christianity and Sanatana Dharma(Hinduism) is.

带有宗教崇拜的表现形式的最古老文明并非是印度教。印度教是一个来自于18世纪的欧洲的术语,用以阐释印度的各种不同信仰系统的复杂性。因为印度有如此之多的信仰系统。我相信Dravidians(Dravidianism)是其中最古老的。印度教,甚至亚伯拉罕的宗教都是从印度纷繁复杂的信仰系统中衍生出来的,同时也包括其他的主要哲学思想。基督教,伊斯兰教等都试图通过研究“吠陀经”,找到融合基督教和Sanatana Dharma(印度教)的方法。

The vedas are not Dravidian, but Indo-European (within that, Indo-Iranian). You're right on the whole about 'Hinduism' being a conglomerate, but it has no common roots with the Abrahamic religions.
bbaker642:

吠陀经不是德拉威人的,而是印欧(其中的印度-伊朗)的。你说得对总体上“印度教”是一个混合物,但是它与亚伯拉罕的宗教并非同源。

Jeru:
引用BigL:
他们有没有....?

Well their language is very common to the ancient one,almost all greeks can read and understand the ancient greek writings,they still have the olympic games,they have theatres,they have lots of ancient traditions like the "Kaberia Mysteria",they have democracy,etc.

他们的语言是古代常见的一种,几乎所有的希腊人都可以阅读并理解古希腊的著作,他们仍然有奥运会,他们有剧院,他们有很多古老的传统,比如“Kaberia Mysteria”,他们还有民主等等。

gcle2003 :
引用Jeru:
引用BigL:
他们有没有....?
他们的语言是古代常见的一种,

The present governmental system in Greece is nothing like ancient Greek democracy - which, in any case was only practised in a few cities.
The main political difference is that the country is governed nationally instead of being a collection of independent city states. In fact the small, independent, city state is the hallmark of ancient Greek civilisation, until of course it falls apart under Philip and Alexander, who impose a far different political system.
If 'almost all' modern Greeks can understand ancient Greek, how do you account for the Melina Mercouri character in Never On Sunday? I had a close Greek friend at university who managed to fail modern Greek, let alone having any idea about ancient Greek. (He subsequently did very well for himself in the film world.)
And they have theatres - but if you put, say, Antigone on at one, how many people would pay to see it?
And today's Olympic games are nothing like the original ones - moreover, compare the numbers attending soccer and basketball in Greece with those attending the traditional ancient sports.

目前的希腊政府系统和古希腊的民主可没有什么相似之处哦——如果要说有的话,也只是在少数的城市实行着(古希腊的民主)。
希腊政治上(和古希腊的)主要区别就是对全国实行统治取代了各个城邦各自为政的的集合。事实上,小的、各自独立的城邦国家正是古希腊文明的重要标志。当然直到菲利普和亚历山大(这种城邦形式)才分崩离析,他们对古希腊施行了一套完全不同的政治制度。
如果“几乎所有的”希腊人都可以理解古希腊的著作,你又如何解释梅丽娜迈尔库里在Never On Sunday中的鬼画符呢?
我在大学有一位希腊的密友,他对现代希腊都不甚了了,更遑论对古希腊有多少认知了。(随后,他在电影界的表现非常好)
他们有剧院——但是如果你提到安提戈涅这个人,又有多少人会花钱看它呢?
并且今天的奥运会和原来的完全不一样——此外,比较一下希腊参与足球和篮球的球员数量和参与传统的古代运动的运动员数量吧。

Jeru:
引用gcle2003:
目前的希腊政府系统和古希腊的民主……

It's called evolution..
Sorry never seen the film.Still its the character she acts,not herself.
When you say failed modern greek do you by any chance mean grammar?cause that is irrelevant.
Don't know how many people would pay to watch Antigone(or afford it) but i wouldn't miss the chance.
It's not the games that matter rather than the greater idea that makes the difference,which by the way i don't think the greeks are to blame in turning them(the games) into a moving making money business.

这就是所谓的进化..
对不起,从来没看过这个电影。这仍然是她演的性格,并非她自己。
当你提到对现代希腊一无所知你是否指的是不了解现代的希腊语语法?因为这是无关的。
不知道有多少人会花钱观看安提戈涅(或买得起),但我不会错过这个机会。
这不是奥运会的问题,而是因为有了更大的想法,使得今天的奥运会和古代的完全不同了,顺便说一下,我不认为人们应该责怪希腊人将奥运会变成了一个移动的赚钱的项目。

Celestial:
Longest living civilization of the world is Turks. They were the ones who crossed the frozen bridge to North America 20.000 years ago. Some scholars also claim that the Turkish language is the oldest language of the world.

现存的世界上最悠久的文明是土耳其人。他们于20.000年前越过冰冻的陆桥到达北美。一些学者还声称,土耳其语是世界上最古老的语言。

Vivek Sharme
引用gcle2003:
吠陀经不是德拉威人的,而是...

No there is a difference. In India there is this concept of Braham & Abraham. A person who follows the righteous ways (read the mainstream religion) is a Braham. the one who does'nt is Abraham. "A" suffix denotes negativity signifying the opposite.
the wester people like to play with theis theory of an aryan race. Indians don't. The word Arya means a noble person. anybody who is a Braham is Arya. A person who was not considered as noble by the mainstream population was called Anarya (not an arya) & his philosophy was called Abraham. An Abrhaham person could become a Braham if he returned to the mainstream religious path.
Indian history is full of infighting between these two sects called Braham & Abraham. For example the Asurs /Ashurs (known to the west as assryians) were predominantly Abrahamic people. So also were the people of South India & Sundaland. The Highest seat of the brahamic faith was Tibet & in south easter central asia.
Another example is of the Madra community (known to the west as the Medes who formed the median empire) These peole are said to have been Brahamic initially, but later becme Abrahamic.

不,这是有区别的。在印度,有这样一个概念:布雷厄姆(Braham)和亚伯拉罕(Abraham)。一个遵循正义方式(阅读主流宗教)的人,他就是布雷厄姆。反之,他就是亚伯拉罕。“A”这个前缀表示与之相反的消极的含义。
西方人喜欢将这一理论应用于雅利安人(aryan)。印度人不会这么做。雅利安(Arya)这一单词的意思是高尚的人。任何被称作布雷厄姆的人就是雅利安。一个人不被主流大众认为是高尚的话,就被称作Anarya(并非雅利安哦),他的哲学就被称作亚伯拉罕。一个亚伯拉罕人可能会成为一个布雷厄姆,如果他回到主流宗教的方式。
印度历史充满了布雷厄姆与亚伯拉罕这两个教派之间的内讧。比如,Asurs和Ashurs(就像西方人所知的assryians)是主要的亚伯拉罕的人。因此也是南印度和Sundaland人。布雷厄姆的最高信条在西藏和亚洲中央的东南部。
另一个例子就是马德拉社区(就是西方人所知的米堤亚人形成的中央帝国),那些人最初都是布雷厄姆派的,但是后来都变成了亚伯拉罕了。
(译者注:这段翻译得太纠结,凑合着看吧。)

Gun Powder Ma
Egypt is the oldest state. It has preserved its statehood, either as an independent state or as an province within an empire, since 3100 BC. Continously.

埃及是历史最悠久的国家。自从公元前3100年,埃及不间断地保留着statehood(中文没这个词,州地位或国家地位),无论是作为一个独立的国家,或是帝国的一个省。

warhead73
Responding to the Q? what is the longest living civilization and according to the arguments on the forum about it. Civilizations on this planet are not determined by race or religin
Human race history and its civilizaton era is a complex historical issue whatever we know about it is whatever we have learned fromit according to records of human history
I thinck us as humam our selfs we are the oldest living human civilization on this planet before any religen or culture and language recorded by us and how much argument could it take to say so even if we go as far as 10,000-15,000 or 20,000 year ago that this is before that .
Human historey and its creation on this planet exist from thousend or may be million yeras ago we donot know for sure the date of existence but we know for sure it existed.

回复这一问题?根据论坛里面的讨论,存在时间最长的文明是什么。在这个星球上,文明并非是由种族和宗教决定的。人类历史以及他们的文明时代是一个复杂的历史问题,不管我们对它了解多少又从人类历史的记录中学到多少。
在我们记录下任何有关宗教、文化和语言的只言片语之前,我认为我们人类本身就是这个星球上现存最长久的文明了,不论争论多少次,我也可以这样说,即使时间回溯到10000-15000或20000年之前,我们人类早就在那儿了。
人类的历史及其产生已在这个星球上存在了千万年或者是百万年之久了,虽然我们不知道确切的时间,但我们知道它肯定存在。

induscivilztion
Hi all i have read all interesting discussions. without any bais and with available evidence i can say that in india there was a civilzation which is older than indus(harappa)civiliztion.Few years back archeologists accidently discoverd a lost city under sea which is dated be 9000years old based on carbon dating. more story on bbc site.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1768109.stm
Someone mentioned zorastarism to be oldest religion,but its not true bcos Avesta(collection of sacred hymns) was written during about 1000 bce by zoraster himself and later hymns were added during 650BCE to 650 CE. vedic texts (sacred hindu books) is much older than this about 1700BCE to 1100 BCE. I was amazed to discover that avestan hymns are excaly the same as sanskrit hymns of rigveda ,one can match word to word, though they used different scripts. Zorastarism and hinduism have similiar gods.some one mentioned about dravidian culture..even today the Shiva of harappa culture is worshiped in india
http://iranianlanguages.com/avesta_overview.htm

嗨,我已看过所有有趣的讨论。我可以不带偏见、论据充分地说,在印度存在着比印度河文明(哈拉帕)更久远的文明。几年前,考古学家意外地发现一座淹没在海水里的失落的城市,基于碳同位素测定,这座城市有9000年历史了。BBC上还有更详细介绍:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1768109.stm
有人提到琐罗亚斯德教是最古老的宗教,但它不是真正的波斯琐罗亚斯德教圣书(神圣赞美诗的集合),这本书成书于公元前1000年左右,由琐罗亚斯德教创始人所写,之后的公元前650年又加上了赞美诗。吠陀梵语版本(神圣的印度教书籍)要比此书历史更长,大约公元前1700年至公元前1100年。让我惊奇的是,吠陀梵语版赞美诗和rigveda的梵文赞美诗极其相似,它们的遣词用句均可一一对应,虽然它们使用的文字是不同的。琐罗亚斯德教和印度教的神邸相似。有人提到德拉威文化。即便是今天,哈拉帕文化中的湿婆神仍被印度人崇拜着。
http://iranianlanguages.com/avesta_overview.htm

Vivek Sharma:
引用Gun Powder Ma:
埃及是历史最悠久的国家。自从....

We are talking about the longest living civilzation not the state.

我们正在讨论的是存在最长久的文明而非国家。

Gun Powder Ma
引用Vivek Sharma:
我们正在讨论的是存在最长久的文明而非国家。

I know, but this is at least a bullet proof fact, while the other question always rests to a large amount on interpretation.

我知道,但这至少是铁一般的事实,而其他的问题总是需要大量的解释。

Vivek Sharma
引用Vivek Sharma:
我知道,但这至少是铁一般的事实,而其他的问题总是需要大量的解释。
在埃及之前,印度人在那里长达几千年来了。

omergun :
引用Celestial:
Longest living civilization of the world is Turks. They were the ones who crossed the frozen bridge to North America 20.000 years ago. Some scholars also claim that the Turkish language is the oldest language of the world.

现存的世界上最悠久的文明是土耳其人。他们于20.000年前越过冰冻的陆桥到达北美。一些学者还声称,土耳其语是世界上最古老的语言。

i agree

我附议

warhead73
现存的世界上最悠久的文明是土耳其人。他们...
我附议

I disagree,in fact turkish people are mixed of Selguke and Mongol-Tatar as of some scholars claim and the language is new by Ataturk.

我不同意,事实上,正如一些学者主张的,土耳其人是塞尔柱人和蒙古-鞑靼人的混血,而今天的土耳其语是由阿塔蒂尔克(土耳其国家领袖)所创。
译者注:塞尔柱人是10~12世纪活动在中亚、中东及西亚历史舞台的一个民族,曾经建立了强大的塞尔柱王朝。塞尔柱王朝分裂后,其中西亚的一支又为奥斯曼土耳其的兴起和强大奠定了基础。
穆斯塔法·凯末尔·阿塔蒂尔克(土耳其语:Mustafa Kemal Atatürk,1881年3月12日-1938年11月10日)是土耳其的军官,改革家,作家和领导人,土耳其共和国第一任总统兼国家创立者,被誉为土耳其人国父。1934年11月24日土耳其国会向凯末尔赐予Atatürk一姓,在土耳其语Ata就是父亲,Atatürk(阿塔蒂尔克)就是“土耳其人之父”之意。生于萨洛尼卡(今希腊境内),木商家庭出身。
凯末尔最为人所知是他在一战杰出的军事能力,同时伴随着奥斯曼帝国的崩解,他带领土耳其独立运动并成功建立安卡拉独立政府,他打败当时协约国所带领的同盟军队,并以杰出的优越能力解放了国家并建立了现今的土耳其共和国,在他就任土耳其领导人的时候,凯末尔进行一连串政治,经济和文化上的变革,启蒙土耳其并让土耳其成为现代化和世俗主义的国家,凯末尔改革土耳其现代化的作为被称为凯末尔主义。
土耳其语(Türk?e; (帮助·关于))是一种现有6500万到7300万人使用的语言,属于阿尔泰语系突厥语族,主要在土耳其本土使用,并通行于阿塞拜疆、塞浦路斯、希腊、马其顿、罗马尼亚、乌孜别克和土库曼斯坦,以及在西欧居住的数百万土耳其裔移民(主要集中在德国)。土耳其语是突厥语族诸语中使用人数最多的语言。
土耳其语起源于中亚,其最早期的文字纪录可上溯至1200年前。随着鄂图曼帝国扩张,今日土耳其语的先驱鄂图曼土耳其语的影响力亦一同往西扩张。早期的土耳其语文字采用阿拉伯字母纪录,但在1928年,土耳其国父穆斯塔法·凯末尔·阿塔土克建立共和国后着手改革国家的语言,用以标志新国家与旧有鄂图曼帝国旳分别,于是改用拉丁字母,直至现今。伴随这个改革的,还包括在新国语中去除旧有从波斯语及阿拉伯语借用的词汇,改为从土耳其语原有的字根去从新组合出有关借词所代表的意思。
土耳其语一个显著的特色,是其元音和谐及大量胶着语的词缀变化。土耳其语的字词采用SOV词序。

honeybee
"Egypt is the oldest state. It has preserved its statehood, either as an independent state or as an province within an empire, since 3100 BC. Continously. "
Nope, Egypt as a state ended in 31 B.C. China lasted from at least as early as 1500B.C.-present. at least 3,500 years.

埃及是历史最悠久的国家。自从公元前3100年,埃及不间断地保留着statehood(中文没这个词,州地位或国家地位),无论是作为一个独立的国家,或是帝国的一个省。
非也,埃及作为国家状态在公元前31年就结束了。亚虎国际娱乐至少从公元前1500年开始直到今天一直保持着国家状态。至少有3500年了。

omergun:
引用warhead73:
我不同意,事实上,正如...

Do you know anything about Türks? If you dont, please dont make such comments. Please dont take the Türkish history in your mouth, oh please.
The Sel?uk Empire is a Türkish Empire, Sel?uks arent a different nation. The Sel?uk Empire is one of the biggest Türk-Islam Empire. How could the same nation mix with the same nation, so pls dont talk nonsense? If we come to the second statement. Firstly it is not Mongol-Tatar, it is Tatar. This is a mix of Türks and Mongols. Türks were always the same from the beginning of history, every nation has mixes, so please dont talk nonsense.
Your third statement about the language. Are you trying to make people angry, or is your capacity? Türkish language never changed. What Atatürk did was change the alphabet of the Türkish language from Arab alphabet to Latin alphabet.

你又对土耳其语了解多少呢?如果你不了解,请不要妄下结论。噢,在谈到土耳其历史的时候,请闭上你的嘴巴。
塞尔丘克(Sel?uk)帝国就是土耳其帝国,塞尔丘克人与土耳其人属同一民族。塞尔丘克帝国是土耳其最大的伊斯兰帝国之一。同样的民族怎么能和同样的民族混血?所以请不要胡说八道了。再看你的第二的结论。首先,没有什么蒙古-鞑靼人,鞑靼人是由土耳其人和蒙古人混血而来的。土耳其人和他诞生之初没什么两样,每一个民族都有混血的情况,所以请不要胡说了。
你的第三个结论关于语言的。你是在想要激怒众人抑或是这就是你的能力之所在?土耳其语从来就没变过。阿塔蒂尔克所做的无非是将土耳其语由阿拉伯字母书写改为拉丁字母罢了。
译者注:塞尔丘克(Sel?uk)是土耳其伊兹密尔省塞尔丘克县的县治,库萨达瑟东北20千米,以弗所东北5千米。它原来的名字是神学家约翰(Ayios Theologos,希腊语:?γιο? Θεολ?γο?),1914年更名塞尔丘克,因为在12世纪,塞尔柱土耳其人在该地区定居。1954年之前一直属于库萨达瑟县,1954年-1957年属于托尔巴勒县。1957年单独设县。它的邻居,北面是托尔巴勒,东北是蒂雷,东为盖尔门哲克,南面是库萨达瑟,西面是爱琴海,西北是门德斯。

Bulldog
Turks originate from the Altay region.
Metalworking has been used since the 2nd millenia BC in that region, still metalworking
is important in Turkic cuture and history, the "Ergenekon Legend" for example.
There have been ancient tombs in Turkic "Kurgans" found with art-works, carpets, metalworking, its sometimes called the "Paryzak culture". The people
of the Altay region today are the same as those back then as proved in
DNA testing from the tombs. An Altay legend is, there were three sons in Altay, one went West
one went East and one stayed.
Now the question is the "longest living civillization", I don't think therefore
that they'll accept Turks as they were a "culture" back then as far as we know but
the area around Altay has had very little archeaological research, if cities and towns
are found like ones recently found close to the area being attributed to the later
Husoi-Nu then it would probobly change all this.
So Turks existed for thousands of years and still in the same area in which they started.
However, the oldest known civillization has to be "Sumerians" as they had cities,
writting, great buildings and architecture etc

土耳其人起源于阿勒泰地区。
自公元前第二个千年,该地区已使用金属加工了,直到今天,金属加工对土耳其文化和历史来说依然重要。以“埃尔盖内孔的传奇”为例,在土耳其的“阿根斯”发现一座古代墓葬,伴有艺术作品、地毯和金属制品,它有时也被称作“Paryzak文化”。通过墓穴的DNA测试证明,今天的阿勒泰地区的人和古代的没什么不同。阿勒泰的传说是,阿勒泰地区有三个儿子,其中一个去了西方,一个去了东方,还有一个留了下来。
现在的问题是“存在时间最悠久的文明”,我不会因此认为当时的土耳其人会被认为是一个“文明”,就我们目前所知的。但是围绕在阿勒泰地区的考古发现实在是太少了,如果能发现像最近在这一区域附近发现的城市或者城镇的话,很有可能历史将要被改写。
所以,土耳其人已存在了几千年了,并且依然生活在他们开始的地方。
然而,已知的最古老的文明是“苏美尔人”,因为他们有城市,文字和伟大的建筑。

Kids
"However, the oldest known civillization has to be "Sumerians" as they had cities,
writting, great buildings and architecture etc"
Civilizations in Middle East are probably the oldest of all, but again, some Indian and Persian evidences could rival that statement.

“然而,已知的最古老的文明是“苏美尔人”,因为他们有城市,文字和伟大的建筑。”
在中东,或许它是最古老的,但是让我再说一次,一些印度和波斯的证据可以反驳你的观点。

warhead73
引用
你又对土耳其语了解多少呢?如果

I think you are over reacting in your statment however if you have any proofs or you like to change history on your own way that is another storey you should read some more books to learn the trueth.

我认为您在是通过在你的陈述作出反应,但是,如果你有任何证据,或者你想用你自己的方式改变历史,那是另一个位面的事,你应该读更多的书以便了解真相。

omergun
引用warhead73
我认为您在是通过在你的声明作出反应,但是...

i know that im right and i know you, and people like you, are haters whom dont deserve to talk about Türks. my statement is a fact, do a little research, you shall find im true.

我知道我是对的,而且我知道你和像你一样的人,心怀怨恨,你们不该讨论土耳其。我的说法是事实,做一些研究吧,你会发现我说的是真的。
 

第九页内容如下:由katherine翻译

Perikles:
Yes everyone hates Turks. We all understand whos is blind. They are asking you to provide prooves and you just insulting people. Please behave
And because i don't know how to search, i mean i always find sites of haters, can you provide a website or a book which is of course objective and you are using as your source. I will appreciate if you do that.
Thank you!!!

是的,每个人都讨厌土耳其人。我们很明白谁在视而不见。他们让你找出论据支持你的论点,而你只在侮辱别人,请注意你的言行。
而且因为不知道怎么搜索,我的意思是我搜到的都是负面的内容,你可以给我提供一个你当做论据来源的客观的网页或者一本书吗?我会对此表示感激。
感谢!

Originally posted by perikles
Yes everyone hates Turks. We all understand whos is blind. They are asking you to provide prooves and you just insulting people. Please behave
And because i don't know how to search, i mean i always find sites of haters, can you provide a website or a book which is of course objective and you are using as your source. I will appreciate if you do that.
Thank you!!!
omergun:
We keep insulting? Look, the three statements you made about Selçuks, Tatars and The Türkish Language are all subjects everyone should know if they do know something. But, guys like you are the ones who are insulting us with your racist, hating vision time after time. It is your racist, hating vision i cant accept, the thruth is obvious.

回复“是的,每个人都讨厌土耳其人。我们很明白谁在视而不见。他们让你找出论据支持你的论点,而你只在侮辱别人,请注意你的言行。••••••”
我们在侮辱别人?看着,你说的3样关于塞尔丘克,鞑靼和土耳其语的言论都是每个人人尽皆知的事情。但是像你这种人却用你满怀憎恨的种族主义观点一次又一次来侮辱我们。事实很清楚,我们无法接受你充满了种族主义憎恨的观点。(译者注:塞尔丘克是土耳其伊兹密尔省塞尔丘克县的县治。)

Yiannis
And I'm tired of seeing different topics being hijacked by Greek-Turk conflicts. If you cannot behave then please do not post at all or your posts will be deleted and warning (or bans if you continue) will fall.
I expect no more posts in that direction after my post!

好吧,我已经厌倦了你一次又一次把帖子歪到希腊人对土耳其人的矛盾中,如果你们不能改改那就干脆别发帖了。否则你的帖子会被删掉并且得到警告。如果继续这样的话甚至可能封号。
我希望从现在开始不用再看到你把帖子歪向那个方向。

Vivek Sharma
The turks could also be the oldest. maybe the so called Indo European Aryans from the Steppes were the originators of the turks. That would make the turks the oldest in the world & the most developed. They had similiar otigins, cultures, history, way of life etc..

土耳其人也可能是最早的。也许所谓的从西伯利亚草原诞生的印欧雅利安人就是土耳其人的原型。那样的话土耳其人就会成为世界上最古老的,同时也是发展最完全的民族。他们源于同种,同一文化,同一历史和同一生活方式。

Originally posted by Vivek Sharma
The turks could also be the oldest. maybe the so called Indo European Aryans from the Steppes were the originators of the turks. That would make the turks the oldest in the world & the most developed. They had similiar otigins, cultures, history, way of life etc..
Jeru:
Can you support your claim?Turks being the oldest people on earth?And why would the oldest man on earth be the most developed?

回复“土耳其人也可能是最早的。也许所谓的从西伯利亚草原诞生的印欧雅利安人就是土耳其人的原型。••••••”
你有论据可以支持你的言论吗?土耳其人是世界上最古老的民族?亚虎国际世界上最古老的民族会是发展最完全的?

Vivek Sharma:
The So Called Aryans / Indo Eurpeans had similiar nomadic origins as the turks, similiar So Called place of origin in central asia, spread out in similiar fashion etc...
These so Called Aryans / Indo Eurpeans were also the most developed in their times, hence the statement.
Off course this is just a thought.

所谓的雅利安人/印欧人有着和土耳其人相似的游牧生活方式,都起源于自所谓的中亚地区,并传播类似的习性等等。
这些所谓的雅利安人/印欧人同时也是他们那个时代最先进的民族,因此我才有这么一个说法。
当然这只是我的个人意见。

Celestial:
Sharma is right. Turks are the oldest nation in the world. The nomads who crossed from Siberia to
North America were Turkish origin. They practiced the old Turkish religion Shamanism and spoke a language close to Turkish.

Sharma 说的对,土耳其人是世界上最老的民族。那些从西伯利亚穿越到北美的游牧民族就是土耳其人的祖先。他们信仰土耳其起源的萨满教,并说着和土耳其语类似的语言。

Vivek Sharma:
They still are the strongest muslim country, despite the hollow nuke rhetoric of pakistan.

他们仍然是最强大的穆斯林国家,除了巴基斯坦。

MidEast_Beast :
How is Hiduism the worlds oldest religion, when Zoroastianism was practiced in Persia before anyone heardof Hinduisim?!

波斯的明教在传播的时候,还没什么人听说过印度教,印度教怎么可能是世界上最古老的宗教?

MidEast_Beast :
The oldest CIVILIAZATION was in mesopotamia in modern day Iraq. These people were of nomadic indo-aryan descent from the steppes of Asia.

最古老的文明是如今伊朗的美索不达米亚文明。那些人是亚洲草原上印度-雅利安游牧民族的祖先。

Vivek Sharma:
Originally posted by MidEast_Beast
How is Hiduism the worlds oldest religion, when Zoroastianism was practiced in Persia before anyone heardof Hinduisim?!
The word Hindu is a very recent import. It denotes the religion only because it has been used for a long time.
A single Indian religion in reality is non existent. Rather it might be called a way of life.
You would be able to put hinduism as a collection of religions with their own philosophies, often confronting each other.
Thus you would find the Zorastrian Ahura Mazda being the same as the Indian Asura Mahadev. Notice how the S & H get changed to H & Z in the conversion from Sanskrit to Persian language. Asura Mahadev is still worshipped in India as one of the major dieties.
Ahura Mazda is said to have said that he recieved directions from Mitra, a god which was common as the supreme diety in the majority of Asia & parts of europe for a long time & was the chief iranian diety for close to a thousand years at least.
Incidentally Indian mythology also claims Asura Mahadev / Ahura Mazda to be the main diety of the Asurs / Ashurs (known to the west as the Assryians)
Mitra is still worshipped in India as one of the major dieties.

回复:“波斯的明教在传播的时候,还没什么人听说过印度教,印度教怎么可能是世界上最古老的宗教?”
“印度”这个词是最近才出现的。用它来指代这个宗教只是因为它被用了很长一段时间。
单纯的印度教并不存在于现实中。这更像是一种生活方式。
你可以把印度教理解为一种各宗教哲学的集合体,然后和别的宗教进行对比。
这样你就会发现明教的阿胡拉•马兹达和印度教的阿苏拉•马哈德夫是一样的。只需要注意梵文里的S和H是怎么转化成波斯语里面的H和Z即可。阿苏拉•马哈德夫在印度仍然是主神之一。(译者注:阿胡拉•马兹达(英语:Ahura Mazda、Ahuramazda),又名欧马兹特(Ormuzd)、阿马兹(Aramazd)、阿兹山卓(Azzandara),名称来自阿维斯陀语,是古代伊朗的神名,查拉图斯特拉宣称它是创造一切的神,因此后来成为琐罗亚斯德教的最高神。阿胡拉•马兹达是《波斯古经》中最常被提到的神名,它是全知的神,但并非全能。在善恶二元论中是代表光明的善神,与代表黑暗的恶神阿利曼(Ahriman)进行长期的战斗,最后获得胜利。)
阿胡拉•马兹达自称受到了密特拉的指示,那是在亚洲和部分欧洲神话中常见的一位至高神,也是一位在伊朗人传说里存在了至少一千年的神明。(译者注:密特拉(原始印度-伊朗语主格形式为*mitras,现代波斯语为میثره,梵语为मित्र)是一个古老的印度-伊朗神祇。这一神祇原是雅利安人万神殿里共有的崇拜对象,在伊朗-雅利安人和印度-雅利安人分化之后,开始向着不同特征发展(阿维斯陀中的密特拉和吠陀中的密多罗)。公元初的几个世纪,对密特拉的崇拜在罗马世界中风行一时,成为基督教的强大对手。在印度,密多罗可能与佛教中的弥勒菩萨有关)
密特拉至今仍然是印度受人尊敬的主神之一。

indian tamil :
oldest or longest surviving civlization is india.
culture similiarities are there between india and other civilizations
are innumerable
minoans,egyptians,sumerians,mayan,japanese,chinese etc
tremendous influence
linguisticly,culturally,etc
bharatnatyam(classical dance) in india practised more than 4000 years
martial arts
mathematical concepts
astronomy
medicine
architecture
etc
we are still following te same with minor changes
mother godess worship, phallus worship,snake worship, tree worship etc still prent in india
egptian and sumerian were very culturally indian

最古老,最长久的文明是印度。
无数的文明都和印度文明有着千丝万缕的文化关联
米诺斯文化,埃及文化,苏美尔文化,玛雅文化,日本文化和亚虎国际娱乐文化等等。
印度文明在语言,文化上具有可怕的影响力
Bharatnatyam(印度传统舞蹈)在印度已经有4000多年的历史
武术,数理,天文,医药,建筑等等,我们(回帖者是印度人)相比以前的文明仍然没有什么大的改变。
母神崇拜,阳具崇拜,蛇崇拜,树木崇拜仍然在印度广为盛行。
埃及和苏美尔文明在文化上仍然和印度十分相似。

dud :
Over the millenia, China and India were run by many different states. So it would not be fair to say that they lasted a collected amount of time. I do not know the actual answer, but I might guess the Neo-Assyrian Empire which lasted about 800 years.
As far as I know, Zoroastrianism is not practised today. I think it is meant that Hinduism is the oldest religion still practiced. The oldest religion ever would probably not be what we consider to be a "religion." Rather a sort of mysticism (I imagine).

历经数千年,亚虎国际娱乐,印度文明都被许许多多的国家统治过。所以说他们确切地存在了多长的时间是不公平的。我不知道确切的答案,但我猜新亚述帝国就至少存在了800年。
据我所知,明教如今已经不复存在,我想这大概代表印度教是最古老的宗教了。最古老的宗教也有可能其实并不和我们现在理解的那种宗教类似。而与可能更像是一种神秘学(我想象的)

Voskhod :
If you define "civilization" as any culture, then I think some obscure Amazonian tribe would be considered the longest living civilization.
The problem with this question though is where would you put the "origin" of a civilization? Is it when they begin to speak the language, adopt the religion or some other event? Aspects of civilization defined as that of a certain civilization have their origins at different time in history.
To use India/Hindu civilization as an example, you could argue a "proto-Shiva" was part of the Harappan pantheon and even if that was really the case Hinduism as we recognise it did not come about until thousands of years later. For China, you could say a culture that was recognisably Chinese exists back in the time of the Shang dynasty, but China was not "united" until the Qin, and after that it experienced several periods of disunion. For the Turks, you could trace the origins of the Turkic languages back to X millenium BC, but the Turks as dud pointed out were largely nomadic until c.AD1000. Additionally, if a civilization drastically changed its character (say, adopt a different religion) would it still be considered the same civilization? (for example, Greece, Iran, etc).

如果你将文明定义为任何一种文化,那我认为一些不知名的亚马逊部落可以被认为是最长久的文明。
但是问题是你去哪里寻找文明的最初起源?是当他们开始使用自己的语言,产生自己的宗教,还是别的一些什么?不同的文明定义,使得各种文明有着不同的起源时间。
用印度文明为例,你可以说“原始湿婆”是哈拉帕文明的神,但是它同时也是文明熟知的几千年后的印度教神明。以亚虎国际娱乐为例,你可以说亚虎国际娱乐的文明早在商朝就存在了,但是亚虎国际娱乐直到秦朝才统一,而且随后又经历了几次分裂。以土耳其为例,你可以回溯其语言自数千年以前,但是土耳其人一直在过游牧生活,直到公元1000年。另外,如果一个文明改变了很多特征(例如,适应了新的宗教)那它还能算做同一个文明吗?(例如希腊,伊朗等等)

Dud:
I agree with Voshkod. Cultures experience many politcal, cultural, and general shifts. For example, India before the turn of the second millenia CE. Prior to roughly 1000 CE, India was divided amongst Hindu tribes. Then the Islamic Turks invade and found the Delhi Sultanate. Could the Delhi Sultanate be considered just to be a part of the civilization "India?" The pre-Turk India and Delhi Sultanate have different religions, cultures, and political systems. I don't think it would be fair just to call that a part of "India" as a civilization.

我同意楼上,文明经过了许多政治,文化和总体上广泛的改变。例如印度,大约公元1000年,印度被分成了许多印地部落,然后伊斯兰土耳其侵略了印度,并建立了德里苏丹国。那德里苏丹国能不能被当做印度文明的一部分?被土耳其侵略以前的印度和德里苏丹国有着不同的宗教信仰,文化和政治体系。我认为单纯的称其为印度文明的一部分是不公平的。(译者注:德里苏丹国(1206-1526),是阿富汗古尔王朝入侵北印度后建立的统治王朝,首一个王朝库特布沙希王朝是由阿富汗带来的突厥奴隶创立的。因此又称为奴隶王朝。这个苏丹国前后分为卡尔吉王朝‎、图格鲁克王朝‎、赛义德王朝和洛迪王朝,由于这些王朝首都始终位于德里,故而被合称为德里苏丹国。)

 
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